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Call No Man Father (Part 2) - Apologetics for the Masses #561
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Topic
Brother Mark: Should Catholics Call Their Priests, Father? No!
General Comments
For all of you up North Dakota way, I'll be speaking at the Real Presence Radio banquet in Williston on Thursday, October 29th, at the Grand Williston Hotel and Conference Center. For more information and/or to register: https://realpresenceradio.com/banquets/ If you live anywhere close by, I'd love to see you there!
Introduction
This week I'll be continuing my dialogue with Brother Mark, host of the YouTube channel: Answers From Scripture, on the the question of whether or not Catholics should call their priests, "Father". Brother Mark doesn't seem to think so. If you want to watch it, here's his 14-minute video explaining his position on the matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtSchEn8dwk&lc=UgwDKU8Jv2DE1sBwSg94AaABAg.AaiadSz8Ro6AaitdikpMAS
Now, you might be asking yourself: "Who is Brother Mark and what are his qualifications to comment on Catholic teaching and practice?" Well, his YouTube channel gives his bona fides thusly: "Who is Brother Mark? 1. He has been studying the Bible for over half a century. 2. He has read through the Bible repeatedly, as many as a dozen times in a year. 3. He has read the Bible all the way through in multiple languages. 4. He has taught in Bible colleges both online and traditional. 5. He has taught and preached around the world and has pastored on three continents."
As I pointed out in the last edition of the newsletter - Apologetics for the Masses #560 - notice what it doesn't say. It says nothing at all about Brother Mark having done any kind of formal study, whatsoever, in Theology, Scripture, Church History, Philosophy, etc. His whole claim to being an expert on all things Bible rests on his assertion that he has read the Bible multiple times, in multiple languages, over multiple years. Maybe he has. But, even if he has - although it's a claim that cannot be verified - that in no way, shape, or form qualifies him as being able to authoritatively proclaim anything about the Bible or about authentic Christian teaching and practice or about the Catholic Church - which, judging from things he has said, he obviously knows very little about. Furthermore, the fact that he apparently has no academic credentials, would preclude him from teaching at any kind of Bible college. At least, any kind of accredited Bible college.
I ended the last newsletter with a series of answers Brother Mark gave to seven questions I had asked him. I am going to start this newsletter by repeating those questions and his answers, and then go from there.
Challenge/Response/Strategy
My Questions
Brother Mark: I will put my questions here, those three plus the others I have asked multiple times, but have yet to get any answers for:
1) Do you have to be holy in order to be saved...yes or no? What does the Bible say, Mr. Answers from Scripture?
2) Does God render eternal life to every man who seeks for glory and honor and immortality by patience in well doing...yes or no? What does the Bible say, Mr. Answers from Scripture?
3) Do you have to forgive the sins of those who have sinned against you in order to be saved...yes or no? What does the Bible say, Mr. Answers from Scripture?
And here are the other questions I've asked, some of them multiple times that have yet to be answered:
4) How is it you put yourself on the throne of God and judge who is or is not going to Heaven, when St. Paul says he doesn't even judge himself and commands Christians to leave judgment to Jesus on His return?
5) By what authority do you claim that your fallible interpretations of Scripture are more authoritative than anyone else’s interpretations of Scripture? Do you consider your interpretations of the Word of God to somehow be infallible...yes or no?
6) Do you have more authority to interpret the Scriptures than I have...yes or no?
7) Give me book, chapter, and verse that says, "Salvation is simple." The Word of Brother Mark says salvation is simple. The Word of God says the path to destruction is simple and that the way is hard that leads to life (Matt 7:13-14; Luke 9:23). Which should I believe: The Word of Brother Mark, or the Word of God?
Brother Mark's Answers
1. No man is holy in and of himself. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. In our flesh dwellerh no good thing. Our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked; but the holiness of Jesus is imputed to our account when we trust in Him.
2. God gives eternal life to all who receive the Son by faith. John 1:12, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:37, Acts 16:31, Rev. 22:17 etc., etc., etc.
3. Those who receive Jesus receive His Spirit and forgive.
4. I don‘t judge who does and doesn‘t go to heaven. God‘s Word tells us who does and who doesn‘t go to heaven.
5. Only God is infallible. His Word is NOT given to private interpretation—not mine, not yours, not the pontiff#s in Rome. That is why I am taking the words Jesus spoke at face value and not trying to reinterpret them as an apologist for some religion that doesn‘t measure up to those words.
6. Answered above.
7. II Corinthians 1:12 & 11:1-4.
My spirit doesn‘t hate anybody. In fact, it is my love for people that causes me (at the risk of my own life) to cry out against religion as Jesus did practically every time He opened His mouth and to call people to salvation. Now that I answered your seven questions, will you answer two for me?
1. If Jesus did not mean what He said, but rather meant what you say he meant when He said what He said, why didn‘t He say what you said He meant, instead of saying what He actually said?
2. If you were to die today, how sure are you that you would spend eternity in heaven and why?
My Comments
Did you notice anything about his "answers"? He didn't answer my actual questions! He was answering questions I didn't ask! The only one that comes close to answering a question that I actually asked is his answer to #4. But, in that answer, for him to claim that he doesn't judge who goes to Heaven or who goes to Hell, when he has judged himself as being Heaven-bound while, in his video, he claims that the Catholic Church is responsible for sending more people to Hell than Islam - well, if that's not judging who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell, I don't know what is.
Then, in his answer to #7, he actually did give me 2 Scripture verses, but neither one of them says: "Salvation is simple." You know, I wonder if he knows what it means when words are inside of a set of quotation marks? And, when I read those two verses he gave, my first thought was: "What the heck did he give me those verses for? Neither one of them even remotely contends that salvation is simple." Read them for yourselves. But then it occurred to me to check out the King James Version (KJV), which he obviously uses, and, lo and behold, in the KJV the word "simplicity" appears in both of the passages he referenced. So, because the word "simplicity" is in those verses, he interprets those verses as saying, "salvation is simple," even though that's not what those verses say. So, for Brother Mark, he simply interprets the word "simplicity" as meaning "salvation is simple". It's as simple as that. Uhmm...no. Actually, if anything is simple here, it's Brother Mark.
Let's look a little more closely at those verses. Here are how the two verses that contain the word, "simplicity," read in the KJV:
2 Cor 1:12, "For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward."
2 Cor 11:3, "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
In neither one does it say, either directly or indirectly, nor does it even imply, that "salvation is simple". I mean, the word "salvation" is nowhere to be found in these passages. Neither is the word "saved". Or "justified". Or the phrase "eternal life". Much less do they talk about the process of how one is saved. 2 Cor 1:12 is talking about how Paul behaved towards the Corinthians when he was with them and that his words to them were not earthly wisdom but flowed from the grace of God.
2 Cor 11:1-4 is talking about how Paul is worried that the Corinthians may fall prey to false teachers and be turned away from a pure devotion to Christ. That sounds like holding on to your salvation is not an easy - i.e., simple - task. And, come to think of it, this passage is actually pretty strong evidence against Once Saved Always Saved (easy, or simple, salvation) - which Bro. Mark is all about. I mean, why is Paul afraid that these members of the Corinthian church - and they can't be members of the church unless they are saved believers, right? - could be pulled away from Christ by false teachers or that they could possibly accept a false gospel? Doesn't Paul know that they're believers...that they're saved? That they can't be pulled away from Christ? Well, apparently he doesn't. Once Saved Always Saved? Not happening here!
In other words, Bro. Mark is your typical Protestant apologist - can't give direct answers to direct questions; can't give rational, relevant, and coherent responses to Catholic arguments; has to evade, deflect, and obfuscate in order to avoid having their beliefs shown to be illogical and unscriptural, and doesn't know what quotation marks mean.
My Response to Bro. Mark
Bro. Mark: You stated that Jesus cried out "against religion...practically every time He opened His mouth?" Where does the Bible say that? Or is that more of the Word of Brother Mark? And are you unable to distinguish religion from those who claim to practice religion? Where did Jesus say, for example, "Judaism is false!?" Or, "Do not practice the religion of the Jews!?" Or anything else along those lines? He doesn't, does He? Anyway, you did at least put something down as answers to my questions - that is rare among the thousands of Protestants I have shared the gospel with in the last 30 years. Although, I note, that you are still either unwilling, or unable, to reply to my questions about Acts 7:1-2, Acts 22:1, and Rom 4:11. Anyway, I will first answer your two questions, then I will address the errors in your answers to my questions. It is only right and just that I do so.
Question #1: "If Jesus did not mean what He said, but rather meant what you say he meant, John, when He said what He said, why didn‘t He say what you said He meant, instead of saying what He actually said?"
Answer: Jesus did indeed mean what He said. I never said otherwise. Are you incapable of understanding what I've said, or are you purposefully being obtuse? I basically said He meant what you said He meant, with one exception. So, what did He mean? I will use your words: "Jesus said in the context of religious leaders seeking notoriety, call no man your father.“ I agree 100%! Again, why are you unable to understand that?! "In the context of religious leaders seeking notoriety, Jesus said to call no man your father," - your words! Do you disagree with your own words? I will go even further, though. Not only were the scribes and Pharisees - the religious leaders of the day - "seeking notoriety," but they were, as I have repeatedly stated, essentially usurping the fatherhood of God. They wanted all attention focused on them and they were leaving God, the Father, out of the equation. As Jesus said in verse 15: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."
Where I disagree with your interpretation, however, is that you are interpreting Jesus' words as an absolute ban on EVER calling a religious leader, "father". I disagree with that interpretation, and you have no authority to tell me I'm wrong, especially since I disagree with your interpretation because it is not in agreement with the rest of Scripture. As I have stated - over and over and over and over again - in Acts 7:1-2, St. Stephen refers to the Jewish religious leaders as "fathers". In Acts 22:1, Paul refers to the Jewish religious leaders as "fathers". In Rom 4:11, St. Paul refers to Abraham as the "father" of the uncircumcised. All three instances are clearly references to spiritual fatherhood. All of which contradict your fallible interpretation of Scripture. And all of which you apparently have no response to.
Question #2: "If you were to die today, how sure are you that you would spend eternity in heaven and why?"
Answer: First, I will ask, where in the Bible is this little quiz of yours? Or, is that simply another non-scriptural contrivance of the Word of Brother Mark? Of course it is. So you're asking me a question that comes from the Word of Brother Mark, and not from the Word of God - I just want to make that clear. Secondly, I will answer your question with the words of St. Paul: "But with me, it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you...I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord Who judges me. Therefore, do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes...Then every man will receive his commendation from God," (1 Cor 4:3-5). Do you have any issue with St. Paul's words?
My Comments
As to his Question #1, his inability - or unwillingness - to grasp the fact that he is basically saying the same thing I am saying about what Jesus meant, when He said, "Call no man your father," is bizarre. This is why I said before that I simply cannot fathom Brother Mark teaching at any kind of Bible college - online or traditional - or that he has pastored on 3 continents, as he claims. I mean, sorry to say, but the man appears to be rather dense. The only difference between what he is saying, and what I am saying, at least from what he said in his video, is that he was saying it is never okay to call someone your spiritual father. Which is why Catholics are wrong to call their priests, "Father," in his apparently infallible opinion. I am, of course, saying it is okay to call someone "father," as in a spiritual father - and that the Bible, particularly in those 3 passages I cite from Acts and Romans, backs me up on that.
The thing is, though, as my conversation with him has gone on - as you'll see below - he actually claimed that he never said in his video that it is always wrong to call someone "father" in the sense of being a spiritual father! Well, I can't remember if he said it directly or not - and I'm not going to waste another 14 minutes of my life watching it again - but the clear implication in the video is that it is always and everywhere wrong to call someone your father, spiritually speaking. He even says that's why he calls himself "Brother" Mark as opposed to "Father" Mark. So, in the course of our conversation, he has, essentially, contradicted what he said in his video. And the reason he has done so, is because I kept pounding on him about Acts 7:1-2, Acts 22:1, and Rom 4:11. Persistence pays off people!
Now, as for his 2nd question, this is the ever so popular Baptist/Evangelical salvation quiz: "If you were to die today...". Whenever you're asked this question, first thing you do is to ask: Is this a question from the Word of God, or from the Word of [insert the other person's name here]? Then, you can tell them that you will answer their non-scriptural question with a scriptural answer. That's when you give them 1 Cor 4:3-5, "But with me, it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord Who judges me. Therefore, do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes...Then every man will receive his commendation from God."
This is the perfect answer to that Protestant "quiz". And no matter what they say after that, just keep repeating 1 Cor 4:3-5. Paul doesn't judge himself, yet the Protestant does indeed judge himself - what's up with that? Paul says wait until Jesus judges when He returns, yet the Protestant says, "Nah, why wait? I can go ahead and judge myself, and everyone else, right now." Why are Protestants so quick to do something that is the opposite of what the Word of God says to do...leave judgment to the Lord upon His return? And, after you give them those verses, follow up with, "Do you have any issue with what Paul says?"
My Response to Brother Mark (cont'd)
Okay, I answered your questions. And I answered the questions you actually asked, unlike you who answers questions that I don't ask and don't answer the questions I do ask. So, let's go on to the errors in those answers you gave to my questions:
First, again, even after being given many opportunities, you still have no answer to my queries vis-a-vis Acts 7:1-2, Acts 22:1, and Rom 4:11 regarding "call no man father". I just want to emphasize that...again! Now, as to your answers to my questions, and the errors contained therein:
1) You didn't actually answer my question. I asked, "Do you have to be holy in order to be saved...yes or no?" You answered: "No man is holy in and of himself." I agree. But that doesn't answer my question. I didn't ask, "Can a man be holy in and of himself, did I?" The actual question was: "Do you have to be holy in order to be saved...yes or no?" Why are you unable to answer such a simple, scripturally-based, question with a direct and scripturally-based answer? The correct answer is, "Yes, you have to be holy to see the Lord," (Hebrews 12:14). You also gave me more of the Word of Brother Mark as opposed to the Word of God in your "answer". Where, for example, does the Bible say: "The holiness of Jesus is imputed to our account when we trust in Him?" Book, chapter, and verse, please? (Oh, and note the quotation marks, they mean something.)
As regards those verses you were quoting, without citation, it seems to me you pay attention only to those parts of Scripture that seem to fit your fallible interpretations. But, what about verses such as these: "That we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve Him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him, all the days of our life." "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord, blameless." "And he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb." Scripture speaks, in any number of places, about the righteousness of men; yet, you deny that men can be righteous. Why is that?
2) Again, no direct answer. So, I will take your answer as being, "No." You do not believe that God renders eternal life to every man who seeks for glory and honor and immortality by patience in well doing." Well, you're wrong on that. Rom 2:6-7 says that God does indeed render to every man according to his DEEDS...his WORKS! "To those who by patience in well-doing, seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." What does the Word of Brother Mark say to that? And, regarding all those Scripture verses you cited...guess what? Not a single one of them says that man is saved by "faith alone"! You know, you might also want to consider these verses: James 2:14, 17, 19-20, 21-22, 24, 25-26; 1 Cor 13:2, 13; Gal 5:6; 1 John 3:23-24 1 Tim 4:7-8, 10; Matt 25:14-30; 31-46; John 15:1-6, 10; Eph 2:10; Matt 7:21; Matt 5:3-10; Matt 19:16-17; 1 Tim 2:15; Rom 2:13; James 1:22, 25; 1 Peter 3:20-21; Heb 4:11, 10:36; Rev 20:13; 22:12; "etc., etc., etc." All of them speak to the role of works in the process of salvation. Salvation is both/and, not either/or, but it all starts with, and by, the grace of God. Your fallible interpretations of the Word of God pit Scripture against Scripture and they cause the Word of God to contradict itself.
3) "Those who receive Jesus receive His spirit and forgive." And the Word of God says that...where? Book, chapter, and verse, please? Where does the Bible say that once one is saved, they automatically forgive others? Or, is that more from the Word of Brother Mark? Yet again, you answer a question I did not ask. Here's the thing: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but will you agree with me that one cannot be saved unless one's sins are forgiven? I'm assuming you will say, "Yes, I agree." (If not, please let me know.) Well, if that's the case, in Matthew 6:14-15, the Word of God tells us that God will not forgive our sins unless we forgive the sins of others. Our forgiving others precedes our being forgiven. It doesn't come after we've been forgiven as you seem to believe. So, you have to have your sins forgiven in order to be saved. And, you have to forgive the sins of others - a work - in order to have your sins forgiven. Which means, you have to forgive the sins of others - a work - in order to be saved. In other words, your answer is contrary to the Word of God, and your belief in Sola Fide is a belief in a lie.
4) Sorry, but your claim that you do not judge who is or is not going to Heaven is patently false. You judge, in particular, millions of Catholics - whom you have never met and whose religion you obviously know little about - as going to Hell. That, Brother Mark, is a judgment you have made, in spite of the fact that St. Paul says, again, in 1 Cor 4, not to judge before Jesus comes back and to leave the judging to Him.
5) "Only God is infallible." Well, first of all, you ignored the question: "By what authority do you claim that your fallible interpretations of Scripture are more authoritative than anyone else’s interpretations of Scripture?" But, I'm getting used to you not answering my questions. Now, regarding your statement that only God is infallible, I have to ask: Were the writers of the books of Scripture infallible when they wrote the Scriptures? Were the Apostles, guided by the Holy Spirit, not infallible in what they taught to people? Was the Council of Jerusalem not infallible in its decisions in Acts 15? You say that God's Word is not subject to private interpretation; yet, private interpretation is exactly what you specialize in. Look back on all the answers you have given me in this thread. How many of those words you used were quoted exactly from Scripture vs. how many were your private interpretations of Scripture? They were ALL your private, fallible, non-authoritative interpretations of Scripture. All of them!
"That is why I am taking the words Jesus spoke at face value." Oh, I don't think so. I will give you several examples of the Word of God that you do not take at face value:
A) "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24). The only place in all of the Word of God where the phrase, "faith alone" appears, and it says the exact opposite of what you believe - "NOT by faith alone". Why did the Holy Spirit have James write the exact opposite of what you believe? Do you take that at "face value"?
B) "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life." (John 6:53-54). Do you take that at "face value"?
C) "...in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you." (1 Peter 3:20-21). "Face value?"
D) "For He [God] will render to every man according to his works. To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." Romans 2:6-7. "Face value?"
E) "For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." Gal 5:6. "Face value?"
F) "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?...If you would enter life, keep the Commandments." Matt 19:16-17. "Face value?"
I could go on...and on...and on...but I think those examples will suffice. Here is what you will do in each instance. You will say something along the lines of, "What that means is...," and then you will give me your own words...your own private, non-authoritative, non-binding, fallible interpretations of those verses. You will not take those verses at face value. You will interpret them...fallibly.
6) Thank you for admitting that you have no authority to interpret the Word of God over and above anyone else's authority to interpret the Word of God. Going back, then, to Question #5 that you did not answer: By what authority do you claim your "understanding" of Scripture to be more accurate, or more authoritative, than mine or anyone else's understanding of Scripture?
7) Uhm, sorry, but I don't think you understand what quotation marks indicate. I asked, where in the Bible does it say, and then in quotes I wrote: "Salvation is simple?" Just because a verse uses the word "simplicity," it isn't the same thing as saying, "Salvation is simple." That is, sorry to have to point out, your private interpretation of those verses. You are giving me the Word of Brother Mark as opposed to the Word of God.
My Comments
When you answer someone's questions, or reply to their arguments - don't be like Brother Mark. Answer what they actually ask, and argue against the arguments they actually make. Don't answer the questions/arguments that you "think" they are making. Don't anticipate the questions/arguments you "think" they are going to make. Respond to what they actually ask/argue. Read what they say very carefully, 2 or 3 times if necessary, before typing out a response. Then when you've typed out your response, go back and re-read what they wrote and see if your response directly addresses their questions/arguments or not. Don't be a Brother Mark.
Brother Mark's Response
So after writing long comments about how terrible my video was, you admit that you agree with me. I never said that Christ’s words were an absolute ban on the use of the word father. I showed some of the very verses that you mentioned where people referred to themselves as somebody’s father in the faith. The text is about people trying to replace God in your lives, someone trying to be his vicar or his mediator. The Bible is clear: “There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.”
My Comments
The man is as stable as a 3-legged stool with one leg missing. I did not write "long comments about how terrible [his] video was." Regarding his video, I simply asked him, over and over and over again, to please explain Acts 7:1-2, Acts 22:1, and Rom 4:11 - all of which have St. Paul and St. Stephen referring to religious leaders as "fathers" in a spiritual sense as opposed to a biological sense - given what he said in his video about not calling spiritual leaders "father". I asked multiple times; yet, he never addressed those passages. But, he then claims that he used some of those same passages that I was asking him about, in his video. Sorry, but, no, he never did any such thing. He avoided using those verses in his video - I believe intentionally so - because they would have proven the whole premise of his video to be wrong!
And, for him to say that I "agree with [him]," as if my position had somehow changed from my very first post, is, again, bizarre. He is the one who is now agreeing with me, and he doesn't even realize it. Again, I said the same thing about the meaning of Jesus' words in my answer to his Question #1 above that I said in the very first post of this conversation and reiterated that same point all the way through the conversation. Why he somehow thinks I'm saying something different is beyond me.
As I said above, he has, essentially, contradicted what he said in his video about "call no man your father". Maybe he did not say that Christ's words were an "absolute ban" on the use of the word, "father," in reference to a spiritual leader, but his video strongly implied it, particularly in respect to Catholic priests. There is no way you can watch his video and come away thinking that he made any exception to his rule, whatsoever. Yet, here he is apparently making an exception to his rule. So, I guess it is okay to call Catholic priests, "Father," after all, as long as they are not trying to take the role of God in your life.
Now, maybe he will try to argue that Catholic priests do indeed try to "replace God in your lives". If that's his argument, then all that shows is his utter ignorance of Catholic teaching and practice. The man is a walking stereotype of an ignorant anti-Catholic bigot. Knows nothing about the Catholic Faith while claiming to know everything about it. Has read all sorts of anti-Catholics telling him what Catholics believe, has never read any Catholics about what Catholics believe. Quotes the Bible left and right; yet, doesn't know the up or down of what the words he is quoting actually mean.
Summary
Well, unfortunately, I allowed the conversation with Brother Mark to get out of hand. The rest of the conversation has gotten very messy and very difficult to follow. So, I'm not going to publish any more of this conversation here in the newsletter. Next issue will have a fresh conversation/topic. Just remember, when it comes to responding to the questions/arguments that Protestants make...don't be a Brother Mark. Be direct. Be as concise as possible. Respond to what is asked/argued. And, don't do what I did near the beginning of the conversation and introduce topics that were not originally on the table. That just gives the other guy the opportunity to avoid the main topic and go off in all sorts of directions. As Brother Mark did indeed do.
Closing Comments
I hope all of you have a great week! And if you live anywhere near Williston, North Dakota, make sure to join me at the Real Presence Catholic Radio banquet at the Grand Williston Hotel and Conference Center on Thursday, October 29th. And, do me a favor, please pray for warm weather for North Dakota for October 29th. Thanks!
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