Call No Man Father - Apologetics for the Masses #560

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Topic

Brother Mark: Should Catholics Call Their Priests, Father?

Introduction

This week, you will learn how NOT to dialogue with a Protestant. I'm going to be commenting on a video someone sent me from a YouTube channel called, Answers from Scripture, which is hosted by a guy who calls himself, "Brother" Mark. Here is the description of Brother Mark that is on his channel.

"Who is Brother Mark? 1. He has been studying the Bible for over half a century. 2. He has read through the Bible repeatedly, as many as a dozen times in a year. 3. He has read the Bible all the way through in multiple languages. 4. He has taught in Bible colleges both online and traditional. 5. He has taught and preached around the world and has pastored on three continents."

Seems to me to be a highly suspect description, especially since he only has some 900+ subscribers to his channel. He's "pastored" on 3 continents? He's taught at online and traditional Bible colleges? He's taught and preached around the world? Such an apparently incredible and learned and accomplished Bible scholar, pastor, and teacher; yet, only 986 subscribers to his YouTube channel? Something doesn't seem quite right. Furthermore, did you notice anything? No claims of degrees. Which is why his "credentials" consist of him having supposedly read the Bible multiple times in multiple languages over multiple years. Really? If I said I've read through an advanced Physics textbook multiple times, in multiple languages, over mutiple years, would that qualify me to teach Physics? Oh heck no. Just because you've read something over and over and over again doesn't mean you're some sort of authority or expert on that which you've read. Shoot, it doesn't even mean that you understand that which you've read, much less that you're able to teach it with any kind of competency.

And, after several rounds of back and forth between he and I, I have to say that I am doubtful that he has pastored anywhere or that he has taught around the world or at any kind of Bible college - online or traditional. Although, I will hold out the possibility that I could be wrong. In Protestantism, just about anything is possible.

Anyway, Brother Mark has a problem with Catholics calling their priests, "Father". He says it should never be done...well, that's what he says in his video, anyway. He may be modifying that position somewhat as our "dialogue" has gone along and he has been admitting to things that I don't think he realizes he's admitting to. But, we'll get that...

So, here's the YouTube video from “Brother” Mark: Answers from Scripture, Brother Mark: Should Catholics Call Their Priests, Father? It's only about 14 minutes long. It is not necessary, however, to watch the video in order to follow the conversation that I am having with him. If you do watch it, though, think about how you would respond to what he has to say. What is problematic in what he says? How would you attack his arguments?

I watched the video and posted the first comment below and from there it was game on. I'll try to limit my comments as much as possible as the conversation has gone on quite a bit longer than I had anticipated, since he is doing all the things that Protestants quite often do in conversations of this nature - avoiding and obfuscating - and since I made a crucial tactical error by allowing him to veer off from the original topic. I didn't follow my own advice. So, I anticipate this conversation could go on for at least 3 newsletters...maybe We'll see how it develops.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

John Martignoni - Response to Brother Mark's "Should Catholics Call Their Priests, Father" video
Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in Heaven." Notice, however, that this makes no distinction between spiritual fathers, which is what our priests are to us, and biological fathers. In other words, if you interpret this passage to say, absolutely, that no man is to be called father, you cannot distinguish between calling a priest, "father," and calling the man who is married to your mother, "father".

But, is that actually what this passage is saying? Or is Jesus warning us against trying to usurp the fatherhood of God? Which, in many ways, is what the Pharisees and Scribes were doing. They wanted all attention focused on them. They were leaving God, the Father, out of the equation. Which is why Jesus goes on to call them hypocrites, liars, and whitewashed tombs.

If you interpret this passage from Matthew 23 as an absolute ban against calling anyone your spiritual father, then there are some problems for you in the rest of Scripture. For example, Jesus, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, has the rich man referring to Abraham as "father" several times. Paul, in Romans chapter 4, refers to Abraham as the "father" of the uncircumcised, the Gentiles. That's referring to spiritual fatherhood, not biological fatherhood.

In Acts 7:1-2, the first Christian martyr, Stephen, referred to the Jewish religious authorities and elders who were about to stone him as brothers and "fathers," as does Paul in Acts, chapter 22. This is referring to spiritual fatherhood. So, if you interpret Matthew 23 as saying we cannot call anyone our spiritual father, then you have a problem with Jesus, Paul, Stephen, and the Holy Spirit - they must have all gotten it wrong.

Actually, it's okay to call priests "father", just as it was okay for Jesus and Paul to call Abraham "father" and for Stephen and Paul to call the Jewish religious authorities, "father." As long as we remember that our true Father is God the Father and that all aspects of fatherhood, biological and spiritual, are derived from Him. And as long as we do not allow anyone else to usurp that role in any way, shape, or form, as the Pharisees and Scribes were prone to do.

Brother Mark@answersfromscriptureonline
First, you have missed the context. Second, you have ignored the video. Third, you have failed to explain the purpose of the words "call no man father." If the words do not mean what they say, but what you say, why did Christ say what He said and not what you said? Why did Paul say what he said? What does the so-called Catholic, so-called church‘s usage of this word have anything to do with the verses you referenced?

My Comments
Uhmm...I didn't miss the context. I didn't ignore the video. And I clearly explained "the purpose" of the words "call no man father". He's not making any sense. My first thought was that this guy doesn't have a clue. My argument is pretty straightforward, yet he seems to be unable to comprehend what I'm saying. Thus, one of the reasons for my hesitancy to believe he has taught at any Bible college or pastored on 3 different continents or taught and preached "around the world".

John Martignoni Response to Brother Mark
First, no, I haven't missed the context. Second, I explained what the words meant, in context. Did you not read what I wrote? Third, I see you made no attempt, whatsoever, at a response to the Scripture verses I quoted. Why did Stephen, the 1st Christian martyr, call the Jewish religious authorities "fathers" (Acts 7:1-2), if you're not supposed to call religious authorities your spiritual fathers? Did he not know you weren't supposed to do that? Same question in regard to Paul calling the Jewish religious authorities "fathers" (Acts 22:1)? And, why did Paul say Abraham was the "father" of the “uncircumcised” - the Gentiles? Did Paul not know he wasn't supposed to do that? Please tell me, Brother Mark, in what way was Abraham a father to the uncircumcised...was it physically or spiritually? Fourth, I did not "ignore" the video. I watched it all the way through. It contained a good bit of misinformation, half truths, and some outright lies. But I watched it, nonetheless. Which is why I commented on it, in order to correct your errors.

For example: You stated, “This saying of Jesus that when it comes to religious leaders, they shouldn’t be called, ‘fathers,” that’s in agreement throughout the Scripture.” Well, apparently not. Again, have you not read Acts 7:1-2, Acts 22:1, and Romans 4:11? You are preaching the Word of Brother Mark, not the Word of God. Then there is this: “And the high priest said, ‘Is this so?’ And Stephen said: ‘Brethren and fathers, hear me...’” (Acts 7:1-2). That doesn’t fit the Word of Brother Mark, now does it?

In the video you asked, “Does the New Testament argue against itself?” The answer is, “No, it does not.” But, what it does argue against, is Brother Mark’s personal, non-authoritative, non-binding, fallible interpretations of the New Testament. Tell me, please, what authority do you grant to yourself in order to proclaim your fallible interpretations of Scipture to be more authoritative than any other person’s interpretations of Scripture? Do you consider your interpretations of the Word of God to somehow be infallible?

Finally, who are you to declare that the Catholic Church is sending people to Hell [in the video]? Are you God? If not, then why do you put yourself on God’s throne and judge the eternal destiny of others? Especially when you obviously have a very flawed and deficient view in regard to what the Catholic Church actually teaches and believes!

Brother Mark@answersfromscriptureonline
Let me deal with the last point that you raised about Catholicism is sending people to hell. The first paragraphs you wrote serve only to demonstrate your inability to understand what I said. But the last point has import. Had you paid attention to the video, again you would find that I explained my claim. Salvation is simple and anyone can be saved in spite of prior religious affiliation. The reason so many Catholics are going to hell is because so many of them are convinced that going to heaven is likely, simply because they are Catholics. Again, I have traveled the world sharing the gospel. When I ask a saved person if he is going to heaven, they immediately explain that they are sinners, undeserving of heaven, yet they know that their eternal destiny in heaven is certain because they have placed their trust in the finished work of Jesus, receiving Him by faith and with him the eternal salvation He promised as a gift. When I ask a Catholic the same question 99% of the time the answer is, „I should go to heaven, I am Catholic;“ or „I hope I will go to heaven as I try to keep the commandments;“ or „I will likely go to heaven, because I try to be good to my neighbors,“ etc. Nearly every Catholic I ask (and I have asked thousands) his answer is indicative of trusting first and foremost in the „church“ or his own good deeds, instead of trusting fully and only in the finished work of our Savior.

My Comments
Okay, I made a tactical error by asking him the question about his condemning Catholics to Hell. That gave him the opportunity to change the conversation from "call no man father", to this garbage about how Catholics supposedly incorrectly answer his salvation quiz, and it's one of the reasons this conversation is going on a lot longer than it needs to. I should have stayed on topic. One other thing: notice how he tries to claim legitimacy - "I have traveled the world sharing the gospel." Who cares, even if it is true. Completely irrelevant to the conversation. When someone starts bragging like that, in order to enhance their legitimacy, it generally works to diminish their legitimacy in my eyes.

John Martignoni Response to Brother Mark
Sorry, Brother Mark, but I do indeed understand what you said. The problem is, you apparently don't understand a thing about Catholicism. And, for the 2nd time now, I take note of the fact that you have not responded to the Scripture verses I brought up where both Paul and Stephen refer to Jewish religious leaders as "fathers," which blows quite the hole in your fallible interpretation of Matt 23:9.

And, I will ask you again: By what authority do you claim that your fallible interpretations of Scripture are more authoritative than anyone else’s interpretations of Scripture? Do you consider your interpretations of the Word of God to somehow be infallible...yes or no? Do you have more authority to interpret the Scriptures than I have...yes or no?

Also, sorry, but when you say you have "traveled the world sharing the gospel," the truth is, you have traveled the world sharing the gospel of the Word of Brother Mark, not the Word of God. For example, you state, "Salvation is simple." Where does the Bible say such a thing? Give me book, chapter, and verse that says, "Salvation is simple." In my Bible - the Word of God - Jesus says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few (Matt 7:13-14). Huh, doesn't sound all that simple. He also says, "If any man would follow Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me." Daily. Not a one-time event where you get your ticket to Heaven punched and that's it. None of this once saved always saved garbage.

And, again, I ask you: How is it you put yourself on the throne of God and judge who is or is not going to Heaven? St. Paul says, "I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore, do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes...Then every man will receive him commendation from God," (1 Cor 4:3-5). Yet, here you are, not only judging yourself as saved, but judging other as saved and unsaved, even though Paul says not to do so before the Lord comes and that it is the Lord Who will judge. How arrogant are you to ignore the words of Scripture and set yourself up as judge in place of the Lord?!

Scripture says to "test the spirits," so I am going to test yours to show you that you really don't know the Bible like you think you do. That you go more by the Word of Brother Mark - your own personal, non-authoritative, fallible interpretations of the Word of God - than you do by the actual Word of God. I will ask you 3 very simple questions with very simple answers. Your answers will tell me all I need to know about your "spirit":

1) Do you have to be holy in order to be saved...yes or no?
2) Does God render eternal life to every man who seeks for glory and honor and immortality by patience in well-doing...yes or no?
3) Do you have to forgive the sins of those who have sinned against you in order to be saved...yes or no?

I look forward to your answers, and to your response to those verses that I've asked you about 3 times now.

My Comments
Well, in for a penny...in for a pound. Getting farther away from the original topic. Adding more topics. I think maybe the fact that I sensed he is anything but some kind of Scripture scholar made me want to go in and really drive that point home by getting him to "expound" on some other Scriptures so that I could show him, multiple times and in multiple ways, that he actually doesn't know what he was talking about. But, that was a mistake on my part. I should have just stuck to "call no man father" - and the authority questions - and then once that issue was more or less settled, I could have moved on to these other areas. You should generally try to stick to one topic at a time and always drive that topic - whatever it may be - toward the question of authority. As you can see, my asking him questions that lead to other topics is doing nothing but complicating the discussion. Again, an example of what not to do.

Brother Mark@answersfromscriptureonline
Repeating the same fallacies, doesn‘t make them true.

John Martignoni Response to Brother Mark
What a ridiculous, and might I add, pathetic, response. Sorry, but you haven't pointed out a single fallacy that I have engaged in. Waving your hand and simply proclaiming that the person whose questions from Scripture you either cannot, or will not, answer is committing this or that fallacy is a pretty weak defense of your position. Your utter inability to respond to questions and arguments that pretty much destroy the claims of your fallible interpretations of the Word of God, is rather telling.

You call your channel here on YouTube, "Answers From Scripture," and you cite 1 Peter 3:15 that instructs Christians to always be prepared to make a defense to those who call you to account. Well, do you have "Answers from Scripture" or not? Apparently you don't, and apparently you are not prepared to make a defense to this Catholic who is calling you to account. Truth does not fear error, "Brother" Mark, error fears truth.

My Comments
Again, he seems completely unable to understand the arguments I'm making in regard to his video on "call no man father". How difficult can it be to understand that if you are claiming - based on one verse of Scripture (Matt 23:9) - that Catholics should never call their spiritual leaders, "father," that you then need to explain, when asked, how it isn't wrong for both Stephen and Paul to call religious leaders, "fathers," as in...spiritual fathers...in other passages of Scripture? But, instead of answering questions or responding to arguments he, in essence, punts. Which is why I got a bit more "earnest" in my language with him, to try and goad him into responding.

Brother Mark@answersfromscriptureonline
I have answers from Scriptures and I gave them. You simply rejected the obvious, literal, contextual exegesis and exchanged it for your own interpretation. If you followed my channel at all, you would notice my willingness to engage Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, etc. at length. But why should I give answers to you when you refuse to answer mine? I asked very plainly, if when Jesus said in the context of religious leaders seeking notoriety, "call no man your father,“ but did not really mean that, why didn‘t He simply say, what you interpreted Him to mean? Why would He have, in fact, said the very opposite. It is easy to see that not one of the quotes from the apostles you brought up contradicted a literal interpretation of Jesus‘ words: yet your interpretation of them did.

John Martignoni Response to Brother Mark
Actually, no...you haven't given me any answers from Scripture. All I've gotten from you are your "opinions". I don't see a single Scripture verse in any of your answers so far. You just keep telling me I'm wrong. But, you don't tell me why I'm wrong other than you "think" I'm wrong. You are not replying to the Scripture verses I've given that show you are actually wrong. You have not answered a single question or responded directly to a single argument.

And I did not "refuse" to answer your question. I answered it in my very first post and in subsequent posts. Why are you deliberately pretending as if I didn't? Regardless, I will give it here again, in the hope that after I have answered your question, you would show the same courtesy and answer mine (although I won't hold my breath on that one). Here is my answer to your question: I agree 100% that Jesus said not to call, to use your own words, the "religious leaders seeking notoriety" by the title of "father". I agree!!! In fact, here is what I said in my very first post since you apparently refuse to read it: "Or is Jesus warning us against trying to usurp the fatherhood of God? Which, in many ways, is what the Pharisees and Scribes were doing. They wanted all attention focused on them...they were leaving God, the Father, out of the equation. Which is why Jesus goes on to call them hypocrites, liars, and whitewashed tombs." There is the answer to your question about what Jesus said. That's why Jesus said not to call them "father". And, again, I used your own words in my answer. Do you disagree with it?

However, in your video, you are fallibly interpreting "call no man your father" as an absolute ban on calling religious leaders spiritual "fathers". Yet, Scripture puts the lie to your words. Again, Acts 7:1-2, St. Stephen, the 1st Christian martyr, refers to the Jewish leaders as "fathers". Physical or spiritual sense? Paul, in Acts 22:1, refers to the Jewish authorities as "fathers". Physical or spiritual sense? In Romans 4:11 Paul refers to Abraham as the "father" of the uncircumcised. Is that in the physical or spiritual sense? Everyone of those verses contradicts your video. And your only response is, essentially, "Unh uh." It seems you are unwilling, or, more than likely, unable, to tell me why those verses don't contradict what you said in the video, so you just say, "You're wrong." That is pathetic.

Now, I have answered your question, will you answer mine? I will put my questions here, those three plus the others I have asked multiple times, but have yet to get any answers for:

1) Do you have to be holy in order to be saved...yes or no? What does the Bible say, Mr. Answers from Scripture?

2) Does God render eternal life to every man who seeks for glory and honor and immortality by patience in well doing...yes or no? What does the Bible say, Mr. Answers from Scripture?

3) Do you have to forgive the sins of those who have sinned against you in order to be saved...yes or no? What does the Bible say, Mr. Answers from Scripture?

And here are the other questions I've asked, some of them multiple times that have yet to be answered:

4) How is it you put yourself on the throne of God and judge who is or is not going to Heaven, when St. Paul says he doesn't even judge himself and commands Christians to leave judgment to Jesus on His return?

5) By what authority do you claim that your fallible interpretations of Scripture are more authoritative than anyone else’s interpretations of Scripture? Do you consider your interpretations of the Word of God to somehow be infallible...yes or no?

6) Do you have more authority to interpret the Scriptures than I have...yes or no?

7) Give me book, chapter, and verse that says, "Salvation is simple." The Word of Brother Mark says salvation is simple. The Word of God says the path to destruction is simple and that the way is hard that leads to life (Matt 7:13-14; Luke 9:23). Which should I believe: The Word of Brother Mark, or the Word of God?

My Comments
"You simply rejected the obvious, literal, contextual exegesis and exchanged it for your own interpretation." This is the issue throughout the entire conversation. Brother Mark's interpretation is, without a doubt, the "obvious, literal, contextual exegesis" of Scripture, and apparently infallible, while everything I say is merely my stupid opinion. Well, my stupid Catholic opinion, which is always and everywhere wrong. Yeah, right. But, I keep pounding him. I keep repeating the questions and keep demanding he answers them. And, I used his own words to answer his question that he keeps saying I haven't answered. And, lo and behold...he answered my questions. Not very good answers, but answers nonetheless. Here they are:

Brother Mark@answersfromscriptureonline
1. No man is holy in and of himself. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. In our flesh dwellerh no good thing. Our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked; but the holiness of Jesus is imputed to our account when we trust in Him.

2. God gives eternal life to all who receive the Son by faith. John 1:12, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:37, Acts 16:31, Rev. 22:17 etc., etc., etc.

3. Those who receive Jesus receive His Spirit and forgive.

4. I don‘t judge who does and doesn‘t go to heaven. God‘s Word tells us who does and who doesn‘t go to heaven.

5. Only God is infallible. His Word is NOT given to private interpretation—not mine, not yours, not the pontiff#s in Rome. That is why I am taking the words Jesus spoke at face value and not trying to reinterpret them as an apologist for some religion that doesn‘t measure up to those words.

6. Answered above.

7. II Corinthians 1:12 & 11:1-4.

My spirit doesn‘t hate anybody. In fact, it is my love for people that causes me (at the risk of my own life) to cry out against religion as Jesus did practically every time He opened His mouth and to call people to salvation. Now that I answered your seven questions, will you answer two for me? 1. If Jesus did not mean what He said, but rather meant what you say he meant when He said what He said, why didn‘t He say what you said He meant, instead of saying what He actually said? 2. If you were to die today, how sure are you that you would spend eternity in heaven and why?

My Comments
I'm going to stop here for now and let you contemplate his answers for a week or so and see what you think the problems with them are? Or, are there any problems with them? Did he get some of them, or any of them, right? What do you think? How would you respond to one or more of his answers? Oh, by the way, did you catch the fact that he has put his own life at risk to "cry out against religion" just like Jesus did? What a brave man.

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a great week! Please pray for us...we pray for you daily!

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