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Apologetics for the Masses #536 - Soul "Sleep" (Part 3)
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Topic
Soul Sleep - After you die, does your soul "sleep" until the 2nd Coming?
General Comments
Upcoming speaking engagements:
- February 20/21; Fullness of Truth Conference in Alexandria, LA. For more information: https://www.fullnessoftruth.org/conferences/alx26
- March 20/21; Worcester Diocesan Men's Conference, Worcester, MA. For more information: https://catholicmenworc.com/
If you live anywhere relatively close by, I would love to see you there!
Introduction
This week I finish up my analysis of a post that I found on a Facebook forum called: Exposing the Roman Catholic Church and the Man of Sin. The post was all about soul "sleep". The author of the post, who goes by the name of "Plain Truth," believes that the soul and the body are not two separate entities. He believes that when the body dies, the soul dies...or, rather, goes into some sort of comatose state, similar to death, that he calls soul "sleep". The soul will remain that way - unconscious, unaware, oblivious - until the 2nd Coming and the Resurrection of the Dead. And, of course, he has the Scripture (in his mind) to back up this particular belief.
In the last issue - Apologetics for the Masses #535 - I dissected the 1st half of his post. This issue, I comment on the 2nd half of his post. All in all, it seems "soul sleep" is a Protestant invention that is based, not on the plain words of Scripture as its adherents claim, but on the private, fallible, non-authoritative interpretations of Scripture of those who believe in this fallacy.
Challenge/Response/Strategy
Mr. Plain Truth
Yet Scripture forbids the practice of contacting the dead in all forms (Leviticus 19:31). Why? Because the “voices” responding are not human spirits at all, but deceiving spirits. A teaching that opens the door to necromancy, whether refined or ritualized, stands in direct opposition to God’s Word. Some attempt to overturn clear biblical teaching by literalizing symbolic passages, ignoring the rules of interpretation established by Scripture itself. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31) is a clear example. If taken literally, the story presents heaven and hell as close enough for conversation between the lost and the saved, an idea nowhere supported in Scripture. It portrays the lost as able to reason and negotiate after judgment, while the saved observe their suffering. Such a picture contradicts the Bible’s consistent teaching that the dead are unconscious (Ecclesiastes 9:5–6; Psalm 146:4) and that judgment occurs after the resurrection, not before (John 5:28–29).
My Comments
"Yet Scripture forbids the practice of contacting the dead in all forms (Leviticus 19:31)." Is that really what Scripture says in Lev 19:31, or is that Mr. Plain Truth's fallible interpretation of what Scripture says? Here's what Lev 19:31 actually says: "Do not turn to mediums or wizards; do not seek them out, to be defiled by them..." You know, I didn't see anything that says, "All forms of the practice of contacting the dead are forbidden." Once again, the Word of Mr. Plain Truth is trying to be passed off as the Word of God. A few points to make about this: 1) Did Jesus ever sin? No, He did not. Which means, if "the practice of contacting the dead in all forms" is forbidden by the Word of God - i.e., it is sinful to do so - then we would expect to never find the Word of God Himself contacting the dead, right? Yet, at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8), what do we see? We see the Word of God...Jesus...contacting the dead - Moses and Elijah. Now, some might say, "Well, Elijah never died, he was taken up in a fiery chariot." Fine. But, the Bible clearly states that Moses died. "So Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there in the land of Moab, according to the Word of the Lord, and He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab..." (Deut 34:5-6). In other words, Jesus contacted the dead. Jesus talked to the dead. And the dead talked back.
2) Are we not called to imitate Jesus' life with our own lives? If Jesus contacted the righteous dead - Elijah and Moses - who will make the argument that it was wrong for Him to do so? And, if it wasn't wrong for Jesus to do so, and we are called to imitate Christ, then how is it wrong for us to do so?
3) Matthew 22:31-32, "'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living!" At least, according to the Word of God. The souls of the righteous who have died...physically died...are still living. At least, so says Scripture. God is the God of the living. So, to talk to the saints in Heaven...the righteous ones who are physically dead...is to talk to the living, not the dead. The souls of the unrighteous ones who are physically dead, are also said to be spiritually dead, since to be thrown into the lake of fire - Hell - is considered to be the 2nd death (Revelation 20:14).
4) When we ask the saints to pray for us, are we using mediums or wizards to do so? Of course we are! I know every time I say a Hail Mary, I first call the 1-800-Psychics hotline and ask them to contact Mary for me so I can talk to her. Yeah, right. We are simply contacting members of the Body of Christ in Heaven - in, through, and by the power of Jesus Christ - and asking them to pray for us. Just as we ask members of the Body of Christ here on earth to pray for us. Where exactly is that forbidden by Scripture, Mr. Plain Truth? It isn't. So, again, the Catholic practice of asking the saints to pray for us is not a violation of Leviticus 19:31. It is, however, a violation of Mr. Plain Truth's fallible interpretation of Leviticus 19:31. Big difference.
"Some attempt to overturn clear biblical teaching by literalizing symbolic passages, ignoring the rules of interpretation established by Scripture itself. Uhmm...what rules of interpretation, what do they say, and where exactly are they "established by Scripture itself"? Does he give us any Scripture passages with these "rules of interpretation"? No, of course not. And, if he did, what would we find? Not any "rules of interpretation established by Scripture," but "rules of interpretation established by" Mr. Plain Truth's fallible interpretations of Scripture.
"The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31) is a clear example. If taken literally, the story presents heaven and hell as close enough for conversation between the lost and the saved, an idea nowhere supported in Scripture." Well, apparently, if he had read the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, he would have read that it very clearly states that "Abraham's bosom" was "far off" from the place of torment the rich man's soul was in. Plus, it says there is a great chasm...an impassable chasm...between the two. Sounds like these two places were pretty far apart. But, the point is, the story didn't mention anything about Heaven! It said nothing about Heaven and Hell being relatively close together. But, hey, it doesn't really matter if he misrepresents what Scripture says, does it? I mean, he's going to interpret it how he wants to interpret it regardless of what the words on the page actually say, right? Also, the absurdity of his statement begins with the fact that no one knows "where" Heaven and Hell are. Where are they physically located? Who knows whether they are close to one another or not? Where does Scripture say "Heaven and Hell are far apart?" And, just because the rich man can communicate with Abraham and Lazarus, why does that mean the two places are "close" to each other? Does he think communication in the spiritual world works the same way as communication in the physical world?
It portrays the lost as able to reason and negotiate after judgment, while the saved observe their suffering. Such a picture contradicts the Bible’s consistent teaching that the dead are unconscious..." No, "such a picture" does not contradict the Bible's consistent teaching, it contradicts the warped teaching of the Word of Mr. Plain Truth. By the way, who exactly is it that is giving us this example of the dead communicating with each other? Jesus Christ. So, if it doesn't mean what it very plainly seems to mean, then what does it mean? Well, we'll find out below.
Mr. Plain Truth
Yet Scripture forbids the practice of contacting the dead in all forms (Leviticus 19:31). Why? Because the “voices” responding are not human spirits at all, but deceiving spirits. A teaching that opens the door to necromancy, whether refined or ritualized, stands in direct opposition to God’s Word. Some attempt to overturn clear biblical teaching by literalizing symbolic passages, ignoring the rules of interpretation established by Scripture itself. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31) is a clear example. If taken literally, the story presents heaven and hell as close enough for conversation between the lost and the saved, an idea nowhere supported in Scripture. It portrays the lost as able to reason and negotiate after judgment, while the saved observe their suffering. Such a picture contradicts the Bible’s consistent teaching that the dead are unconscious (Ecclesiastes 9:5–6; Psalm 146:4) and that judgment occurs after the resurrection, not before (John 5:28–29).
My Comments
"Yet Scripture forbids the practice of contacting the dead in all forms (Leviticus 19:31)." Is that really what Scripture says in Lev 19:31, or is that Mr. Plain Truth's fallible interpretation of what Scripture says? Here's what Lev 19:31 actually says: "Do not turn to mediums or wizards; do not seek them out, to be defiled by them..." You know, I didn't see anything that says, "All forms of the practice of contacting the dead are forbidden." Once again, the Word of Mr. Plain Truth is trying to be passed off as the Word of God. A few points to make about this: 1) Did Jesus ever sin? No, He did not. Which means, if "the practice of contacting the dead in all forms" is forbidden by the Word of God - i.e., it is sinful to do so - then we would expect to never find the Word of God Himself contacting the dead, right? Yet, at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8), what do we see? We see the Word of God...Jesus...contacting the dead - Moses and Elijah. Now, some might say, "Well, Elijah never died, he was taken up in a fiery chariot." Fine. But, the Bible clearly states that Moses died. "So Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there in the land of Moab, according to the Word of the Lord, and He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab..." (Deut 34:5-6). In other words, Jesus contacted the dead. Jesus talked to the dead. And the dead talked back.
2) Are we not called to imitate Jesus' life with our own lives? If Jesus contacted the righteous dead - Elijah and Moses - who will make the argument that it was wrong for Him to do so? And, if it wasn't wrong for Jesus to do so, and we are called to imitate Christ, then how is it wrong for us to do so?
3) Matthew 22:31-32, "'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living!" At least, according to the Word of God. The souls of the righteous who have died...physically died...are still living. At least, so says Scripture. God is the God of the living. So, to talk to the saints in Heaven...the righteous ones who are physically dead...is to talk to the living, not the dead. The souls of the unrighteous ones who are physically dead, are also said to be spiritually dead, since to be thrown into the lake of fire - Hell - is considered to be the 2nd death (Revelation 20:14).
4) When we ask the saints to pray for us, are we using mediums or wizards to do so? Of course we are! I know every time I say a Hail Mary, I first call the 1-800-Psychics hotline and ask them to contact Mary for me so I can talk to her. Yeah, right. We are simply contacting members of the Body of Christ in Heaven - in, through, and by the power of Jesus Christ - and asking them to pray for us. Just as we ask members of the Body of Christ here on earth to pray for us. Where exactly is that forbidden by Scripture, Mr. Plain Truth? It isn't. So, again, the Catholic practice of asking the saints to pray for us is not a violation of Leviticus 19:31. It is, however, a violation of Mr. Plain Truth's fallible interpretation of Leviticus 19:31. Big difference.
"Some attempt to overturn clear biblical teaching by literalizing symbolic passages, ignoring the rules of interpretation established by Scripture itself. Uhmm...what rules of interpretation, what do they say, and where exactly are they "established by Scripture itself"? Does he give us any Scripture passages with these "rules of interpretation"? No, of course not. And, if he did, what would we find? Not any "rules of interpretation established by Scripture," but "rules of interpretation established by" Mr. Plain Truth's fallible interpretations of Scripture.
"The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31) is a clear example. If taken literally, the story presents heaven and hell as close enough for conversation between the lost and the saved, an idea nowhere supported in Scripture." Well, apparently, if he had read the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, he would have read that it very clearly states that "Abraham's bosom" was "far off" from the place of torment the rich man's soul was in. Plus, it says there is a great chasm...an impassable chasm...between the two. Sounds like these two places were pretty far apart. But, the point is, the story didn't mention anything about Heaven! It said nothing about Heaven and Hell being relatively close together. But, hey, it doesn't really matter if he misrepresents what Scripture says, does it? I mean, he's going to interpret it how he wants to interpret it regardless of what the words on the page actually say, right? Also, the absurdity of his statement begins with the fact that no one knows "where" Heaven and Hell are. Where are they physically located? Who knows whether they are close to one another or not? Where does Scripture say "Heaven and Hell are far apart?" And, just because the rich man can communicate with Abraham and Lazarus, why does that mean the two places are "close" to each other? Does he think communication in the spiritual world works the same way as communication in the physical world?
It portrays the lost as able to reason and negotiate after judgment, while the saved observe their suffering. Such a picture contradicts the Bible’s consistent teaching that the dead are unconscious..." No, "such a picture" does not contradict the Bible's consistent teaching, it contradicts the warped teaching of the Word of Mr. Plain Truth. By the way, who exactly is it that is giving us this example of the dead communicating with each other? Jesus Christ. So, if it doesn't mean what it very plainly seems to mean, then what does it mean? Well, we'll find out below.
Mr. Plain Truth
Furthermore, the image of “Abraham’s bosom” cannot be literal. Abraham was one man, and his “bosom” could not physically contain the righteous dead of all ages. The expression was a Jewish idiom symbolizing favor and acceptance, not a geographic compartment of the afterlife. Jesus employed this familiar imagery to confront the Pharisees’ false security in lineage, not to map the state of the dead. Parables illustrate moral truth; they do not create doctrine. Christ Himself warned that parables must be interpreted through the lens of clearer Scripture (Matthew 13:10–13).
My Comments
My Comments
Abraham's bosom "could not physically contain the righteous dead of all ages"? Really?! What an absolutely ridiculous statement to make. As if. First of all, "Abraham's bosom" was understood by the Church Fathers to be the abode of the righteous dead of the Old Testament era, before they were able to enter Heaven upon the death and resurrection of Jesus. It was not understood to be Abraham's physical bosom. Secondly, the righteous dead were in the spirit, not in the body. So, even if it was Abraham's physical bosom being referenced, how many souls could be contained in Abraham's bosom? An infinite amount, because souls...spirit...have no physical dimensions. I mean, how many angels can fit on the head of a pin? An infinite amount, because a spirit has no height, no width, no depth. Not that Abraham's bosom was an actual physical place, though, because...guess what? Abraham didn't have his body in the afterlife...he was, and still is, a disembodied soul until the final Resurrection of the Dead. So, Mr. Plain Truth's statement is absurd in multiple ways.
"The expression [Abraham's bosom] was a Jewish idiom symbolizing favor and acceptance, not a geographic compartment of the afterlife." Yes, indeed, "Abraham's bosom" was a Jewish idiom symbolizing favor and acceptance. So, when applied to someone who has died, it means they found favor and acceptance after they died. What do you think that would mean? Oh, I know - it means Thus, the reason why the Church Father's viewed "Abraham's bosom" as the abode of the righteous dead...the abode of those who had found favor and acceptance with God. And, was it a "geographic compartment of the afterlife"? Well, no...it wasn't. I mean, it was inhabited only by the souls of the righteous dead. So, it wasn't a geographic location as, once again, souls have no physical dimensions.
"Jesus employed this familiar imagery to confront the Pharisees’ false security in lineage, not to map the state of the dead." Uhmm...where does the passage say that "Jesus employed this familiar imagery to confront the Pharisees' false security in lineage?" And what does that even mean? Is he assuming the rich man was a Pharisee? Nowhere does the Bible say that. What a complete corruption of what the words on the page actually say! If the poor man being "carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom" means he found favor and acceptance after death - exactly what does that mean for someone who is comatose? It's ridiculous! Do you see how painfully some have to twist the Word of God in order to get it to fit with their beliefs? I really have no idea what he is saying and how this story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in any way, shape, or form "confronts the Pharisees' false security in lineage". And why would Jesus - Teacher Par Excellant - tell a story about people communicating with each other in the afterlife, if people are unable to hear, see, or think in the afterlife? That would be like me telling a bunch of Baptists a story about the souls in Purgatory. They would immediately dismiss it as nonsense since they don't believe in Purgatory. So why tell a story about souls talking to each other in the after life, if souls can't talk to each other in the after life? Makes no sense.
Parables illustrate moral truth; they do not create doctrine. Christ Himself warned that parables must be interpreted through the lens of clearer Scripture (Matthew 13:10–13). Well, when I read Matthew 13:10-13, I see absolutely nothing...NOTHING!...about how parables "must be interpreted through the lens of clearer Scripture"! Where does this guy get this stuff?! Furthermore, who said that the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man "create[d] doctrine"? It reflects truth...it reflects doctrinal belief...but it doesn't "create" it. That's one of this guy's problems, he gets his doctrines from Scripture - after the fact. Mr. Plain Truth's "church," at its beginning - whenever it was founded and whoever founded it - was devoid of doctrine. Then, his church - even if it is just a one man church - picks up a Bible (which they obviously had no part in putting together), reads certain passages, and from those passages it "creates doctrine". Whereas, the Church founded by Jesus Christ, and guided by the Holy Spirit, wrote Scripture as a reflection, and reinforcement, of its beliefs that had come from Jesus Christ and was passed to all of the Church by the Apostles and their successors - "the Apostles' teaching" of Acts 2:42. Nowhere does the Bible say, "And the early church devoted itself to reading Scripture and everyone deciding for themselves on matters of doctrine." Jesus' Church, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, put its beliefs into Scripture; Mr. Plain Truth's church takes its beliefs out of some human being's fallible interpretations of Scripture.
Mr. Plain Truth
The same principle applies to the thief on the cross. Jesus’ promise was certain, but its fulfillment was future. The punctuation of Luke 23:43 determines meaning, and the broader testimony of Scripture resolves it.
"The expression [Abraham's bosom] was a Jewish idiom symbolizing favor and acceptance, not a geographic compartment of the afterlife." Yes, indeed, "Abraham's bosom" was a Jewish idiom symbolizing favor and acceptance. So, when applied to someone who has died, it means they found favor and acceptance after they died. What do you think that would mean? Oh, I know - it means Thus, the reason why the Church Father's viewed "Abraham's bosom" as the abode of the righteous dead...the abode of those who had found favor and acceptance with God. And, was it a "geographic compartment of the afterlife"? Well, no...it wasn't. I mean, it was inhabited only by the souls of the righteous dead. So, it wasn't a geographic location as, once again, souls have no physical dimensions.
"Jesus employed this familiar imagery to confront the Pharisees’ false security in lineage, not to map the state of the dead." Uhmm...where does the passage say that "Jesus employed this familiar imagery to confront the Pharisees' false security in lineage?" And what does that even mean? Is he assuming the rich man was a Pharisee? Nowhere does the Bible say that. What a complete corruption of what the words on the page actually say! If the poor man being "carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom" means he found favor and acceptance after death - exactly what does that mean for someone who is comatose? It's ridiculous! Do you see how painfully some have to twist the Word of God in order to get it to fit with their beliefs? I really have no idea what he is saying and how this story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in any way, shape, or form "confronts the Pharisees' false security in lineage". And why would Jesus - Teacher Par Excellant - tell a story about people communicating with each other in the afterlife, if people are unable to hear, see, or think in the afterlife? That would be like me telling a bunch of Baptists a story about the souls in Purgatory. They would immediately dismiss it as nonsense since they don't believe in Purgatory. So why tell a story about souls talking to each other in the after life, if souls can't talk to each other in the after life? Makes no sense.
Parables illustrate moral truth; they do not create doctrine. Christ Himself warned that parables must be interpreted through the lens of clearer Scripture (Matthew 13:10–13). Well, when I read Matthew 13:10-13, I see absolutely nothing...NOTHING!...about how parables "must be interpreted through the lens of clearer Scripture"! Where does this guy get this stuff?! Furthermore, who said that the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man "create[d] doctrine"? It reflects truth...it reflects doctrinal belief...but it doesn't "create" it. That's one of this guy's problems, he gets his doctrines from Scripture - after the fact. Mr. Plain Truth's "church," at its beginning - whenever it was founded and whoever founded it - was devoid of doctrine. Then, his church - even if it is just a one man church - picks up a Bible (which they obviously had no part in putting together), reads certain passages, and from those passages it "creates doctrine". Whereas, the Church founded by Jesus Christ, and guided by the Holy Spirit, wrote Scripture as a reflection, and reinforcement, of its beliefs that had come from Jesus Christ and was passed to all of the Church by the Apostles and their successors - "the Apostles' teaching" of Acts 2:42. Nowhere does the Bible say, "And the early church devoted itself to reading Scripture and everyone deciding for themselves on matters of doctrine." Jesus' Church, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, put its beliefs into Scripture; Mr. Plain Truth's church takes its beliefs out of some human being's fallible interpretations of Scripture.
Mr. Plain Truth
The same principle applies to the thief on the cross. Jesus’ promise was certain, but its fulfillment was future. The punctuation of Luke 23:43 determines meaning, and the broader testimony of Scripture resolves it.
Luke 23:43 reads in most English Bibles:
“Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
However, punctuation was not part of the original Greek manuscripts. The commas and sentence breaks were added centuries later by translators. This means the placement of the comma directly affects how the statement is understood.
These are the two readings but only one is correct:
1- THE IDEA OF IMMEDIATE FULFILLMENT:
“Verily I say unto thee, today you will be with Me in paradise.”
This suggests the thief entered paradise that very day.
2- A PROMISED FUTURE FULFILLMENT:
“Verily I say unto thee today, you will be with Me in paradise.”
This emphasizes the time the promise was spoken, not the time it would be fulfilled.
After His resurrection, Jesus declared, “I am not yet ascended to My Father” (John 20:17). Since paradise is not a separate realm from heaven, but another biblical designation for God’s dwelling place (2 Corinthians 12:2–4; Revelation 2:7), neither Christ nor the thief could have entered paradise on the day of the crucifixion. The promise pointed forward to the resurrection, when Christ returns to receive His people (John 14:1–3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).
My Comments
And, of course, the 2nd reading above - with the comma after "today" instead of before "today" - is the absolutely correct reading of the verse. How do we know this to be true? Because that's the reading that fits Mr. Plain Truth's preset belief. So it has to be...HAS TO BE...true! Ignore the fact that putting the comma after the word "today," makes that word completely extraneous to the sentence. "Verily I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise." Well, of course Jesus said it to the Good Thief "today". I mean, He couldn't say it to him yesterday or tomorrow, now could He? Which, again, makes the word "today" completely extraneous...totally unnecessary...in this rendering. It would have worked just as well...actually better...if Jesus had simply said, "Verily I say unto you, you will be with Me in paradise." No confusion that way, right? No possible way to misinterpretate that as Jesus saying the thief would be with Him in paradise "today" and accidentally imply that souls are indeed alive in the afterlife. That's not what Jesus did, though, is it? But how come? Why did Jesus apparently choose wording that could be so easily misinterpreted? Why? Makes no sense.
Here's the thing that Mr. Plain Truth apparently does not realize. Jesus is God, right? Well, for God, how many days are there? One. Every day is "today" - the same day - for God. God is in the eternal present. As Scripture says, a day is as a thousand years to God and a thousand years is as a day. It could have just as easily said a day is as a million years, or a billion years, or a trillion years to God. God is in the eternal present. So, when Jesus says that the Good Thief will be with Him in paradise "this day," He was correct, because He is in the eternal day. Was the good thief in paradise within a thousand years? I would think he was. So, for Jesus, Who is God, as long as the Good Thief was in paradise within a thousand years, he was with Jesus "this day". Furthermore, was Jesus Christ, in His Divine Person, not already in Heaven? Yes, His human nature had not yet ascended into Heaven, but was His divine nature not already in Heaven? Yes indeed. So, in that way, too, the Good Thief could be with Jesus in paradise on "this day".
Mr. Plain Truth
Additionally, Jesus consistently taught that reward is given at the resurrection, not at death (John 5:28–29; Matthew 25:31–34). The apostle Paul affirmed that believers receive immortality when Christ returns, not before (1 Corinthians 15:51–53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).
My Comments
My Comments
Yes, Jesus consistently taught that reward is given at the Resurrection, when body and soul are reunited, but Scripture also tells us of punishment, and reward, of the dearly departed before the Resurrection. Jude 7: "...just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." Those cities are already undergoing eternal punishment...before the Resurrection. In 2 Peter 2:4, the Bible tells us of the demons who are kept in pits of nether gloom until the judgment (i.e., suffering punishment before Judgment Day), and then, in verse 9, it says this: "...then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority." The unrighteous are kept under punishment until the day of judgment, and the godly are rescued from trial until the same. So, the context of this passage is ongoing punishment of the demons - outside of time - as well as the ongoing punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities (see also Jude 7) - outside of time - then verses 9 and 10 must be talking about the ongoing rescue of the godly and punishment of the unrighteous - outside of time. Aka: after death. The unrighteous are being "kept under punishment" until the day of judgment. How do you punish a "sleeping" soul?
Mr. Plain Truth
When Scripture is allowed to interpret Scripture, harmony emerges. Symbolic passages illuminate truth already established; they never override plain teaching. The hope of the believer rests not in immediate ascent at death, but in the sure promise of resurrection at Christ’s return.
My Comments
Mr. Plain Truth
When Scripture is allowed to interpret Scripture, harmony emerges. Symbolic passages illuminate truth already established; they never override plain teaching. The hope of the believer rests not in immediate ascent at death, but in the sure promise of resurrection at Christ’s return.
My Comments
"When Scripture is allowed to interpret Scripture, harmony emerges." What he's really saying is, "When I'm allowed to interpret Scripture through the prism of my preset beliefs, then what appears to be harmony emerges." The key to understanding his interpretive methodology is when he says, "Symbolic passages illuminate truth already established." Truth that is "already established". In other words, after he has developed his doctrine from his fallible interpretations of a verse here or a verse there, then he interprets all other passages in Scripture through the lens of that "already established" doctrine. Twisting any and all passages as much as he has to in order to get them to agree with his "already established" truth, so-called.
Mr. Plain Truth
The Biblical Conclusion: Where Are the Dead?
Mr. Plain Truth
The Biblical Conclusion: Where Are the Dead?
The Bible answers clearly and consistently:
- The dead are in their graves (Job 14:10–12).
- They are asleep, unconscious, awaiting Christ’s return (Daniel 12:2).
- They receive reward or condemnation at the resurrection, not at death (Matthew 25:31–46).
- Immortality is not universal, but a gift given only to the saved, at the last trumpet when Jesus returns(1 Corinthians 15:51–53).
- God alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).
My Comments
My Comments
The dead are indeed in their graves. Nowhere does a single passage he cites above, however, say that the soul is sleeping. That the soul...which gives consciousness to the body...is itself unconscious. Yes, the body without the soul is unconscious...dead. Again, though, that is because the soul is the source of consciousness. And, yes, at the Resurrection of the dead, at the end of the world, final judgment will be rendered, but each person's eternal fate is sealed at the moment of their death, and their souls are either in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory until they are reunited with their bodies in the Resurrection of the dead. Immortality, in one sense, is only for the saved - in the sense that they do not experience the 2nd death, which is being thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15). In another sense, however, immortality - existing forever - is for both the saved and the unsaved. After all, how can one experience eternal punishment (Matt 25:46) if one is not immortal? Another thing, if God alone possesses immortality, then how is it the saved receive the gift of immortality? Yes, God in His Person, alone possesses immortality, but human beings - good and evil - are granted immortality, by God, so as to experience either eternal punishment or eternal life.
Mr. Plain Truth
Final Appeal
Mr. Plain Truth
Final Appeal
The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is ancient, widespread, and popular, but it is not biblical. It originated with the serpent and has been adapted by paganism, absorbed by the occult, and institutionalized within Christianity. Scripture calls believers back to a resurrection-centered hope, a faith grounded not in fear of wandering souls, but in the victorious return of Christ.
The dead are not watching us.
They are not suffering.
They are not speaking.
They are resting, until He comes.
My Comments
Garbage. All according to the Word of Mr. Plain Truth. As I stated in the last newsletter, he just makes up this claim that the immortality of the soul originated with Satan. Yet, nowhere does he give any evidence...not even a trace...of the "development" of this supposedly satanic doctrine amongst pagans, Christians, or any other relgious belief system. He just makes the whole thing up.
The dead are not watching us? They are not speaking? They are unconscious? They know nothing? Yet, we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses which is comprised of the Old Testament saints (Hebrews 12:1). How can we be surrounded by them if they are unaware of us? Abraham and the rich man both know of things going on with the rich man's brothers who are still alive on earth (Luke 16:19-30). The souls under the altar in Heaven know of things occurring on earth (Rev 6:9-10). Elijah and Moses were speaking to Jesus (Matt 17:3-4). The assembly of the first born, and the spirits of just men made perfect, are already in Heaven (Heb 12:23). In Heaven, before the Resurrection, there is a great multitude of martyrs from every nation, who serve God day and night within His temple (Rev 7:9-17). Paul says to his "desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better," (Phil 1:23). Paul is saying that when he dies, he will be with Christ. He doesn't say, "My desire is to depart and be completely comatose and unaware, for that is far better."
This soul sleep garbage is nothing more than all the other peculiarly Protestant doctrines and beliefs - the result of an individual reading the Bible on his own, without answering to any authority other than his own imagination, to come to his own private fallible interpretation of certain verses, and thus create a particular doctrine that he then uses as the measure by which he measures all the rest of the Bible. It's insane. And it results in absolute chaos.
My Comments
Garbage. All according to the Word of Mr. Plain Truth. As I stated in the last newsletter, he just makes up this claim that the immortality of the soul originated with Satan. Yet, nowhere does he give any evidence...not even a trace...of the "development" of this supposedly satanic doctrine amongst pagans, Christians, or any other relgious belief system. He just makes the whole thing up.
The dead are not watching us? They are not speaking? They are unconscious? They know nothing? Yet, we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses which is comprised of the Old Testament saints (Hebrews 12:1). How can we be surrounded by them if they are unaware of us? Abraham and the rich man both know of things going on with the rich man's brothers who are still alive on earth (Luke 16:19-30). The souls under the altar in Heaven know of things occurring on earth (Rev 6:9-10). Elijah and Moses were speaking to Jesus (Matt 17:3-4). The assembly of the first born, and the spirits of just men made perfect, are already in Heaven (Heb 12:23). In Heaven, before the Resurrection, there is a great multitude of martyrs from every nation, who serve God day and night within His temple (Rev 7:9-17). Paul says to his "desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better," (Phil 1:23). Paul is saying that when he dies, he will be with Christ. He doesn't say, "My desire is to depart and be completely comatose and unaware, for that is far better."
This soul sleep garbage is nothing more than all the other peculiarly Protestant doctrines and beliefs - the result of an individual reading the Bible on his own, without answering to any authority other than his own imagination, to come to his own private fallible interpretation of certain verses, and thus create a particular doctrine that he then uses as the measure by which he measures all the rest of the Bible. It's insane. And it results in absolute chaos.
Closing Comments
That's it for Mr. Plain Truth, unless he happens to respond to the comments I've made on his Facebook forum, but he hasn't yet in the last few weeks since I posted, so I doubt he will. Folks like this don't like to be challenged.
I hope all of you have a great week!
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