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Apologetics for the Masses #535 - Soul "Sleep" (Part 2)
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Topic
Soul Sleep - After you die, does your soul "sleep" until the 2nd Coming?
General Comments
Hey folks,
Two things:
1) I have a book recommendation for you. It's the conversion story of a young lady here in Birmingham. I actually edited the book for her (full disclosure: I don't get a penny from any book sales). I know her father and that's how I wound up editing her book. Her name is Ellie Hiller. The book's name is: To Whom Shall I Go?: Why I Laid Down My Protest. It was an absolutely fascinating read. I think you will enjoy it. And, it is a book that you could give to any Protestant friend as it details her struggles of becoming Catholic in a very Protestant-friendly way. She has self-published and the book is available on Amazon here: To Whom Shall I Go, by Ellie Hiller. Again, I highly recommend it.
2) Upcoming speaking engagements:
- February 20/21; Fullness of Truth Conference in Alexandria, LA. For more information: https://www.fullnessoftruth.org/conferences/alx26
- March 20/21; Worcester Diocesan Men's Conference, Worcester, MA. For more information: https://catholicmenworc.com/
If you live anywhere relatively close by, I would love to see you there!
Introduction
Last week I started my reply to a post that I found on a Facebook forum called: Exposing the Roman Catholic Church and the Man of Sin. The post was all about soul "sleep". Essentially, this guy, who goes by the name of "Plain Truth" - and who is an Admin for the forum - believes that the soul and the body are not two separate entities. He believes that when the body dies, the soul dies...or, rather, goes into some sort of comatose state, similar to death, that he calls soul "sleep". The soul will remain that way - unconscious, unaware, oblivious - until the 2nd Coming and the Resurrection of the Dead. And, of course, he has the Scripture (in his mind) to back up this particular belief. This is not a majority opinion within Protestantism, but it does have a decent number of adherents, particularly the 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, and also some Primitive Baptists and even some amongst the Lutherans.
I printed his entire post in the last issue - Apologetics for the Masses #534 - if you would like to read it uninterrupted by my comments. It's a fairly long post, so I only replied to a few paragraphs of it in the last issue. In this issue, I'm going to repeat that first part of my reply and then continue with the rest of my reply. I'll be going paragraph-by-paragraph through his post, with my comments interspersed. Again, if you want to read his entire post, uninterrupted by my comments, just click on the link above to Issue #534.
Challenge/Response/Strategy
Mr. Plain Truth
WHERE ARE THE DEAD?
A Biblical Investigation into an Ancient Deception Shared by Paganism, Christianity, and the Occult
WHERE ARE THE DEAD?
A Biblical Investigation into an Ancient Deception Shared by Paganism, Christianity, and the Occult
INTRODUCTION
Few questions are as universal, or as misunderstood, as this one: Where are the dead? Across cultures and religions, remarkably similar answers are given: the dead are alive elsewhere, watching, speaking, guiding, suffering, or rejoicing. Yet these answers sharply conflict with one another and, more importantly, with Scripture itself. A careful biblical investigation reveals that many religions, ancient pagan systems, occult practices, and even large segments of Christianity, share a common belief: the immortality of the soul. The Bible identifies this belief not as divine truth, but as an age-old deception originating with Satan.
My Comments
Well, we get confusion from the very first paragraph. "A careful biblical investigation reveals that many religions...and even large segments of Christianity, share a common belief: the immortality of the soul." The Bible says that? Where? He then says, "The Bible identifies this belief not as divine truth, but as an age-old deception originating with Satan." Really? So, a "careful biblical investigation" reveals that many religions, including large segments of Christianity, believe in the immortality of the soul. The Bible says that? I look forward to his enlightening me as to exactly where the Bible says such a thing.
And, apparently, the Bible also specifically identifies this belief in the immortality of the soul as a deception originating with Satan. Really? So, I am now expecting to have Mr. Plain Truth give me the Scripture quotes - book, chapter, and verse - that say something along the lines of: "Well, a lot of religions, and even a lot of Christians, believe in the immortality of the soul, but that's just a deception originating with Satan." Did Paul say that? Maybe it was Peter? Maybe it was in the Letter of Jude? Where does the Bible say such a thing?
Short answer: It doesn't. We can say, without hesitation, that no, the Bible does not identify the belief in the immortality of the soul "as an age-old deception originating with Satan." That is Mr. Plain Truth's private, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation of the Bible, not the the Bible itself, that says that. The Word of Mr. Plain Truth vs. the Word of God.
Mr. Plain Truth
Ancient pagan religions taught that the soul survives death consciously, whether in the underworld, as ancestral spirits, or through reincarnation. Eastern religions speak of rebirth and karmic return. Spiritism claims the dead communicate with the living. Popular Christianity teaches that souls go immediately to heaven, hell, or purgatory at death. Though these systems differ in details, they share the same foundation: the dead are not really dead. This common thread exposes a serious inconsistency. How can contradictory destinations, reincarnation, purgatory, eternal torment, ancestral guardianship, all be true at once? The similarity does not point to truth, but to a shared source.
My Comments
"Popular Christianity" teaches that souls go to heaven, hell, or purgatory? Or would that maybe be...Catholicism? I love how he is trying to disparage the belief in the immortality of the soul by arguing that since there are inconsistencies about the disposition of the soul after death between Catholicism, Hinduism, Spiritism, etc., then that points to a fundamental problem with the belief in the immortality of the soul. Well, here's the thing - these are not "inconsistencies" as much as they are simply the different beliefs of different religious systems. An "inconsistency" would be if the same religious system believed all of those things about the soul simultaneously. That would be inconsistent.
Using his same logic, you would necessarily have to think that there is a fundamental problem with a belief in God, since there are all these "inconsistencies" between different religions regarding their beliefs in God, or a Supreme Being. Hindus believe one thing, Muslims another, Jews another, Spiritists another, and Christians still another. To use his logic, then: "This common thread exposes a serious inconsistency. How can contradictory [beliefs in God - unitarian God, universal God, trinitarian God, etc.], all be true at once? The similarity does not point to truth, but to a shared source." So, again, using Mr. Plain Truth's "logic," the inconsistencies among religions as to their beliefs about God, cast some serious doubts on the existence of God.
Mr. Plain Truth
Scripture traces this belief to the very beginning. God declared plainly, “In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Genesis 2:17). Satan contradicted God with the first lie: “You shall not surely die” (Genesis 3:4). That lie did not disappear, it evolved. Instead of denying death outright, it redefined death as a doorway to conscious existence elsewhere. This is the theological backbone of soul immortality.
My Comments
My Comments
Well, we get confusion from the very first paragraph. "A careful biblical investigation reveals that many religions...and even large segments of Christianity, share a common belief: the immortality of the soul." The Bible says that? Where? He then says, "The Bible identifies this belief not as divine truth, but as an age-old deception originating with Satan." Really? So, a "careful biblical investigation" reveals that many religions, including large segments of Christianity, believe in the immortality of the soul. The Bible says that? I look forward to his enlightening me as to exactly where the Bible says such a thing.
And, apparently, the Bible also specifically identifies this belief in the immortality of the soul as a deception originating with Satan. Really? So, I am now expecting to have Mr. Plain Truth give me the Scripture quotes - book, chapter, and verse - that say something along the lines of: "Well, a lot of religions, and even a lot of Christians, believe in the immortality of the soul, but that's just a deception originating with Satan." Did Paul say that? Maybe it was Peter? Maybe it was in the Letter of Jude? Where does the Bible say such a thing?
Short answer: It doesn't. We can say, without hesitation, that no, the Bible does not identify the belief in the immortality of the soul "as an age-old deception originating with Satan." That is Mr. Plain Truth's private, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation of the Bible, not the the Bible itself, that says that. The Word of Mr. Plain Truth vs. the Word of God.
Mr. Plain Truth
Ancient pagan religions taught that the soul survives death consciously, whether in the underworld, as ancestral spirits, or through reincarnation. Eastern religions speak of rebirth and karmic return. Spiritism claims the dead communicate with the living. Popular Christianity teaches that souls go immediately to heaven, hell, or purgatory at death. Though these systems differ in details, they share the same foundation: the dead are not really dead. This common thread exposes a serious inconsistency. How can contradictory destinations, reincarnation, purgatory, eternal torment, ancestral guardianship, all be true at once? The similarity does not point to truth, but to a shared source.
My Comments
"Popular Christianity" teaches that souls go to heaven, hell, or purgatory? Or would that maybe be...Catholicism? I love how he is trying to disparage the belief in the immortality of the soul by arguing that since there are inconsistencies about the disposition of the soul after death between Catholicism, Hinduism, Spiritism, etc., then that points to a fundamental problem with the belief in the immortality of the soul. Well, here's the thing - these are not "inconsistencies" as much as they are simply the different beliefs of different religious systems. An "inconsistency" would be if the same religious system believed all of those things about the soul simultaneously. That would be inconsistent.
Using his same logic, you would necessarily have to think that there is a fundamental problem with a belief in God, since there are all these "inconsistencies" between different religions regarding their beliefs in God, or a Supreme Being. Hindus believe one thing, Muslims another, Jews another, Spiritists another, and Christians still another. To use his logic, then: "This common thread exposes a serious inconsistency. How can contradictory [beliefs in God - unitarian God, universal God, trinitarian God, etc.], all be true at once? The similarity does not point to truth, but to a shared source." So, again, using Mr. Plain Truth's "logic," the inconsistencies among religions as to their beliefs about God, cast some serious doubts on the existence of God.
Mr. Plain Truth
Scripture traces this belief to the very beginning. God declared plainly, “In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Genesis 2:17). Satan contradicted God with the first lie: “You shall not surely die” (Genesis 3:4). That lie did not disappear, it evolved. Instead of denying death outright, it redefined death as a doorway to conscious existence elsewhere. This is the theological backbone of soul immortality.
My Comments
See what he did here? He substituted his interpretation of Scripture...for Scripture! "Scripture traces this belief to the very beginning." Where does Scripture say, "The false belief in the immortality of the soul originates with what Satan said in Genesis 3:4?" The Word of God does not say that. The Word of Mr. Plain Truth says that.
A few things to note regarding Mr. Plain Truth's contention here: 1) Nowhere does he give us any reference to anyone, or any religious system, using Satan's words as justification for their beliefs about the immortality of the soul. Does the Catechism of the Catholic Church say, "We know the soul is immortal because of what Satan says in Genesis 3:4?" I don't think so. 2) Nowhere in the Bible does anyone point back to Genesis 3:4 to note that the supposedly false belief in the immortality of the soul started with Satan. 3) The interpretation of Gen 3:4 that has Satan's words referring to the immortality of the soul, even indirectly, as opposed to physical death, is just that...an interpretation. Satan did not say, "Your soul will not die," he said, "You will not die." Furthermore, in Gen 3:3, God did not say, "You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest your soul die." He said, "...lest you die."
So to say that the "false belief" of the immortality of the soul begins with Satan's words in Genesis 3:4, when Genesis 3:4 does not mention the soul - and neither does Gen 2:17 nor Gen 3:3 mention the soul - is to simply make something up out of whole cloth. This story line is a complete fiction. He has done what many good Protestants have done - they've latched on to a verse or two of the Bible that they have interpreted as teaching a certain doctrine, and then they've gone back and interpreted numerous other Scripture passages through the lens of that doctrine in order to justify their initial interpretations. Sola Fide believers do this all the time. They twist the Scriptures to fit their beliefs, as opposed to fitting their beliefs to the Scriptures. So, too, Mr. Plain Truth has done the same thing.
Here's the thing, though: God told Adam that "in the day" he ate the fruit, he would die (Gen 2:17). And Eve told Satan that God had said not to eat the fruit, or even touch it, "lest you die". Yet, on the day they touched it and ate it, they didn't die. At least, not a physical death. So, was God lying to them when He said they would die? No, because they did die "in the day"...but it wasn't a physical death, it was a spiritual death. The moment Adam and Eve touched and ate the fruit, they died...a spiritual death. They separated themselves from God. Which is spiritual death. They killed the life of God in their souls by committing a mortal sin. Yet, they were still "alive" in the physical sense. Although, eventually, they did indeed die a physical death, as well.
Then, when Satan told Eve that if she eats the fruit she won't die, was he lying to her? In one sense, no, he wasn't. But he was in another sense - he was twisting the truth. Satan was telling her that she won't die, physically, at the moment she ate the fruit. And she didn't. But she, and Adam, did die - spiritually - the moment they ate the fruit, and eventually they died physically, too. But, neither she nor Adam physically died at that moment..."in the day". So Satan took what God said and twisted it.
The point I want to really focus on here, though, is that, apparently, as we'll see, Mr. Plain Truth believes that body and soul live, and die, together. If you are alive, then both your body and soul are alive. If you are dead, then both your body and soul are dead (or "sleeping" in the case of the soul). But the example of Adam and Eve prove otherwise. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they died "in the day". But it was a death of the spirit...of the soul. They separated themselves from God, which is the definition of spiritual death. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that a mortal (i.e., deadly) sin is a sin "that destroys the divine life in the soul of the sinner". That's why they call them "mortal" sins. Not because they kill the body, but because they kill the soul.
Yet, even though their souls "died" via their separation from God, they were still alive...physically. Which indicates that the body can be alive even if the soul is dead. (Note: when I say the soul is "dead", that doesn't mean the soul is destroyed or that intellect and will - the properties of the soul - cease to function or any such thing. It simply means the soul has cut itself off from God, the Source of life, and is now in a state of damnation as opposed to a state of grace.) And, if the body can be alive when the soul is dead, that would seem to indicate that the soul can be alive when the body is dead. In other words, that the body and the soul are two separate entities. Mr. Plain Truth appears to be giving the soul almost, if not actually, physical characteristics vis-a-vis life and death. If the body stops breathing, then the soul stops "breathing" sort of thing. The problem for him is, the definition of "death" is different between body and soul. Again, as the example of Adam and Eve demonstrate - dead souls, yet living bodies.
So, no, Genesis 3:4 is not the "theological backbone" of the belief in the immortality of the soul. That statement is entirely made up. Again, he points to no process, from any religious tradition, of the "evolution" of the belief in the immortality of the soul beginning with Satan's words in Gen 3:4. None! This so-called "evolution" of belief in the immortality of the soul that he is talking about is entirely contrived. It is the Word of "Mr. Plain Truth," not the Word of God.
Mr. Plain Truth
A few things to note regarding Mr. Plain Truth's contention here: 1) Nowhere does he give us any reference to anyone, or any religious system, using Satan's words as justification for their beliefs about the immortality of the soul. Does the Catechism of the Catholic Church say, "We know the soul is immortal because of what Satan says in Genesis 3:4?" I don't think so. 2) Nowhere in the Bible does anyone point back to Genesis 3:4 to note that the supposedly false belief in the immortality of the soul started with Satan. 3) The interpretation of Gen 3:4 that has Satan's words referring to the immortality of the soul, even indirectly, as opposed to physical death, is just that...an interpretation. Satan did not say, "Your soul will not die," he said, "You will not die." Furthermore, in Gen 3:3, God did not say, "You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest your soul die." He said, "...lest you die."
So to say that the "false belief" of the immortality of the soul begins with Satan's words in Genesis 3:4, when Genesis 3:4 does not mention the soul - and neither does Gen 2:17 nor Gen 3:3 mention the soul - is to simply make something up out of whole cloth. This story line is a complete fiction. He has done what many good Protestants have done - they've latched on to a verse or two of the Bible that they have interpreted as teaching a certain doctrine, and then they've gone back and interpreted numerous other Scripture passages through the lens of that doctrine in order to justify their initial interpretations. Sola Fide believers do this all the time. They twist the Scriptures to fit their beliefs, as opposed to fitting their beliefs to the Scriptures. So, too, Mr. Plain Truth has done the same thing.
Here's the thing, though: God told Adam that "in the day" he ate the fruit, he would die (Gen 2:17). And Eve told Satan that God had said not to eat the fruit, or even touch it, "lest you die". Yet, on the day they touched it and ate it, they didn't die. At least, not a physical death. So, was God lying to them when He said they would die? No, because they did die "in the day"...but it wasn't a physical death, it was a spiritual death. The moment Adam and Eve touched and ate the fruit, they died...a spiritual death. They separated themselves from God. Which is spiritual death. They killed the life of God in their souls by committing a mortal sin. Yet, they were still "alive" in the physical sense. Although, eventually, they did indeed die a physical death, as well.
Then, when Satan told Eve that if she eats the fruit she won't die, was he lying to her? In one sense, no, he wasn't. But he was in another sense - he was twisting the truth. Satan was telling her that she won't die, physically, at the moment she ate the fruit. And she didn't. But she, and Adam, did die - spiritually - the moment they ate the fruit, and eventually they died physically, too. But, neither she nor Adam physically died at that moment..."in the day". So Satan took what God said and twisted it.
The point I want to really focus on here, though, is that, apparently, as we'll see, Mr. Plain Truth believes that body and soul live, and die, together. If you are alive, then both your body and soul are alive. If you are dead, then both your body and soul are dead (or "sleeping" in the case of the soul). But the example of Adam and Eve prove otherwise. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they died "in the day". But it was a death of the spirit...of the soul. They separated themselves from God, which is the definition of spiritual death. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that a mortal (i.e., deadly) sin is a sin "that destroys the divine life in the soul of the sinner". That's why they call them "mortal" sins. Not because they kill the body, but because they kill the soul.
Yet, even though their souls "died" via their separation from God, they were still alive...physically. Which indicates that the body can be alive even if the soul is dead. (Note: when I say the soul is "dead", that doesn't mean the soul is destroyed or that intellect and will - the properties of the soul - cease to function or any such thing. It simply means the soul has cut itself off from God, the Source of life, and is now in a state of damnation as opposed to a state of grace.) And, if the body can be alive when the soul is dead, that would seem to indicate that the soul can be alive when the body is dead. In other words, that the body and the soul are two separate entities. Mr. Plain Truth appears to be giving the soul almost, if not actually, physical characteristics vis-a-vis life and death. If the body stops breathing, then the soul stops "breathing" sort of thing. The problem for him is, the definition of "death" is different between body and soul. Again, as the example of Adam and Eve demonstrate - dead souls, yet living bodies.
So, no, Genesis 3:4 is not the "theological backbone" of the belief in the immortality of the soul. That statement is entirely made up. Again, he points to no process, from any religious tradition, of the "evolution" of the belief in the immortality of the soul beginning with Satan's words in Gen 3:4. None! This so-called "evolution" of belief in the immortality of the soul that he is talking about is entirely contrived. It is the Word of "Mr. Plain Truth," not the Word of God.
Mr. Plain Truth
This Is What The Bible Actually Says Happens At Death:
- The body returns to dust (Genesis 3:19).
- The spirit (which is the breath of life) returns to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
- The dead are unconscious: “The dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
- Thought, memory, and emotion cease (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:6).
The “spirit” that returns to God is not a thinking soul, but the breath God gives to all living creatures (Job 27:3). Body plus breath equals a living soul (Genesis 2:7). Separate them, and consciousness ends.
My Comments
He is, essentially, correct in what he says vis-a-vis what happens at death. However, I don't think all of those verses he cited mean what he thinks they mean. Yes, Genesis 3:19 says the body returns to dust. And, yes, Eccles 12:7 says the spirit returns to God. And, yes, Eccles 9:5 says the dead know nothing. However, it doesn't say the dead know nothing because they are unconscious, or sleeping. The word, "unconscious," is not part of the text. In fact, the word "unconscious" is not to be found anywhere in the Bible. The dead know nothing not because they are unconscious, but because they are dead! If I'm rendered unconscious, which has happened a few times in my life (a couple of surgeries and one run of my head with the knee of a center fielder), I still know things, I just can't tell you - at that moment - that I know things. But I still know them, nonetheless. So, no...the dead are not merely unconscious, they are dead...physically dead
This does not mean, however, that the soul has somehow become comatose. The context of the passage in Ecclesiastes 9 is that of physical life. It is referring to the body, not the soul. Eccles 9:5-6 says this: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more forever any share in all that is done under the sun." "All that is done UNDER THE SUN." The passage is talking about physical life - life that occurs "under the sun". Physical life vs. physical death. Nothing here about spiritual death, or soul sleep, or soul unconsciousness, or any such thing. Also, it says the dead have no more reward. But, wait a minute, the folks who believe in soul sleep believe that the soul does still have a reward, in Heaven, after the General Resurrection of the Dead. Which means, verse 5 must be referring to rewards one receives while in their physical bodies here on planet Earth. Again, the context of the passage is about the physical body, not the soul. It is talking about what happens to us - physically - when we die. Our bodies know nothing. Our bodies have no memory. Our bodies have no envy or hate. Because we're dead!
And yes, thought, memory, and emotion cease - in our bodies - when one dies. However, neither Eccles 9:6 nor Psalm 146:4 say, or even imply, that our souls go comatose when we die. That is an interpretation - a private, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation. It is the Word of Mr. Plain Truth as opposed to the Word of God. Just so his interpretation of Job 27:3. Job 27:3 says "...as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils..." This is an obvious reference to Genesis 2:7 which says that "the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Nowhere does Job 27:3, nor Genesis 2:7, say that this "breath of life" was not a living soul with intellect and will.
God says in Gen 1:26, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." Well, if God is pure spirit, which He is, then He doesn't have a physical image and likeness. God does not have a head, and a body, and arms and legs and hands and feet. Someone might say, "Well, Jesus does." Yes, Jesus has a human nature. But His human nature, in and of itself, is not divine. It is "human". Plus, that human nature had not yet come into existence when God was making man in His image and likeness. So, how is it that man could possibly be made in the image and likeness of God? Because he has a spirit that has intellect and will, just as God is a spirit Who has intellect and will. So, the breath...the spirit...that God breathed into the nostrils of man to cause him to become a living being, must have intellect and will. Intellect and will wasn't in the clay that God used to form man, so it must have been in the breath...the spirit...that God breathed into man. Which means, to say that the "spirit" that returns to God is not a thinking soul - is not a soul with intellect and will - flies in the face of God's creation of man. Nowhere does the Bible say, "The spirit that returns to God is not a thinking soul." Nowhere! That is, once again, a private, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation. The Word of Mr. Plain Truth, not the Word of God.
Finally, regarding this particular paragraph, notice his definition of what a "living soul" is: "Body plus breath equals a living soul (Genesis 2:7). Separate them, and consciousness ends." Genesis 2:7 reads as follows in the King James Version (KJV): "...And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." So, again, according to Mr. Plain Truth: body + breath of God = living soul. He defines the soul as being a body animated by God's breath. Let me say this one more way: If the body, without the soul, was not a conscious living being; and then when the soul (the breath of God) was added to the body it became a conscious living; doesn't it make sense that the soul - the breath of God - is the source of the consciousness for the body? The source of the life of the body? Which means, when the soul is separated from the body, life and consciousness leave the body...with the soul! So how can you say the soul is unconscious when it separates from the body if it is the source of consciousness for the body?!
Mr. Plain Truth
The “spirit” that returns to God is not a thinking soul, but the breath God gives to all living creatures (Job 27:3). Body plus breath equals a living soul (Genesis 2:7). Separate them, and consciousness ends.
My Comments
He is, essentially, correct in what he says vis-a-vis what happens at death. However, I don't think all of those verses he cited mean what he thinks they mean. Yes, Genesis 3:19 says the body returns to dust. And, yes, Eccles 12:7 says the spirit returns to God. And, yes, Eccles 9:5 says the dead know nothing. However, it doesn't say the dead know nothing because they are unconscious, or sleeping. The word, "unconscious," is not part of the text. In fact, the word "unconscious" is not to be found anywhere in the Bible. The dead know nothing not because they are unconscious, but because they are dead! If I'm rendered unconscious, which has happened a few times in my life (a couple of surgeries and one run of my head with the knee of a center fielder), I still know things, I just can't tell you - at that moment - that I know things. But I still know them, nonetheless. So, no...the dead are not merely unconscious, they are dead...physically dead
This does not mean, however, that the soul has somehow become comatose. The context of the passage in Ecclesiastes 9 is that of physical life. It is referring to the body, not the soul. Eccles 9:5-6 says this: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more forever any share in all that is done under the sun." "All that is done UNDER THE SUN." The passage is talking about physical life - life that occurs "under the sun". Physical life vs. physical death. Nothing here about spiritual death, or soul sleep, or soul unconsciousness, or any such thing. Also, it says the dead have no more reward. But, wait a minute, the folks who believe in soul sleep believe that the soul does still have a reward, in Heaven, after the General Resurrection of the Dead. Which means, verse 5 must be referring to rewards one receives while in their physical bodies here on planet Earth. Again, the context of the passage is about the physical body, not the soul. It is talking about what happens to us - physically - when we die. Our bodies know nothing. Our bodies have no memory. Our bodies have no envy or hate. Because we're dead!
And yes, thought, memory, and emotion cease - in our bodies - when one dies. However, neither Eccles 9:6 nor Psalm 146:4 say, or even imply, that our souls go comatose when we die. That is an interpretation - a private, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation. It is the Word of Mr. Plain Truth as opposed to the Word of God. Just so his interpretation of Job 27:3. Job 27:3 says "...as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils..." This is an obvious reference to Genesis 2:7 which says that "the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Nowhere does Job 27:3, nor Genesis 2:7, say that this "breath of life" was not a living soul with intellect and will.
God says in Gen 1:26, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." Well, if God is pure spirit, which He is, then He doesn't have a physical image and likeness. God does not have a head, and a body, and arms and legs and hands and feet. Someone might say, "Well, Jesus does." Yes, Jesus has a human nature. But His human nature, in and of itself, is not divine. It is "human". Plus, that human nature had not yet come into existence when God was making man in His image and likeness. So, how is it that man could possibly be made in the image and likeness of God? Because he has a spirit that has intellect and will, just as God is a spirit Who has intellect and will. So, the breath...the spirit...that God breathed into the nostrils of man to cause him to become a living being, must have intellect and will. Intellect and will wasn't in the clay that God used to form man, so it must have been in the breath...the spirit...that God breathed into man. Which means, to say that the "spirit" that returns to God is not a thinking soul - is not a soul with intellect and will - flies in the face of God's creation of man. Nowhere does the Bible say, "The spirit that returns to God is not a thinking soul." Nowhere! That is, once again, a private, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation. The Word of Mr. Plain Truth, not the Word of God.
Finally, regarding this particular paragraph, notice his definition of what a "living soul" is: "Body plus breath equals a living soul (Genesis 2:7). Separate them, and consciousness ends." Genesis 2:7 reads as follows in the King James Version (KJV): "...And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." So, again, according to Mr. Plain Truth: body + breath of God = living soul. He defines the soul as being a body animated by God's breath. Let me say this one more way: If the body, without the soul, was not a conscious living being; and then when the soul (the breath of God) was added to the body it became a conscious living; doesn't it make sense that the soul - the breath of God - is the source of the consciousness for the body? The source of the life of the body? Which means, when the soul is separated from the body, life and consciousness leave the body...with the soul! So how can you say the soul is unconscious when it separates from the body if it is the source of consciousness for the body?!
Mr. Plain Truth
Jesus Himself defined death as sleep. Speaking of Lazarus, He said, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps,” then He clarified, “Lazarus is dead” (John 11:11–14). David called death “the sleep of death” (Psalm 13:3). Sleep implies silence, rest and not conscious activity. The awakening Scripture points to is the resurrection.
My Comments
Uhmm...no...Jesus did not define death as sleep. Do I die every night when I go to sleep? If I do, then I guess we should define waking up as being resurrected from the dead. I don't think Mr. Plain Truth is familiar with the concept of a euphemism. Death is the separation of body and spirit. Sleep is a temporary state of rest - no separation of body and spirit. You go to sleep at night, and you wake up in the morning. You don't die at night, and get resurrected in the morning.
"Sleep implies silence, rest and not conscious activity." Yes and no. When you are sleeping, your brain is still active and your senses are still engaged, albeit at a decreased level. You can hear, feel, smell, taste, and even see when you are sleeping. Not so when you die. You can talk in your sleep, you can walk in your sleep, you can eat and drink in your sleep, you can dream - you can even realize you're dreaming while you're dreaming - all of which demonstrate a certain level of consciousness. Not so when you die. You can have a certain level of awareness of things going on around you when you sleep. Not so when you die. So, no, Jesus did not "define death as sleep". Jesus used the word "sleep" in regard to Lazarus as a gentler way of saying he "died". It was a euphemism.
And, lest you think I am, in a way, making Mr. Plain Truth's case for him about the soul being completely unaware after death...no, I'm not. All of what I just said is in reference to the body, not the soul. Nowhere...absolutely nowhere...does the Bible say, "And when you die, your soul goes comatose." Or, "When you die, your soul goes to sleep." Actually, Mr. Plain Truth's argument about death being like sleep is an argument that runs contrary to what he believes about soul sleep because, again, being asleep, as opposed to being dead, implies one has a certain level of consciousness and perception. Soul sleep adherents believe there is absolutely zero level of consciousness and awareness in the soul after one dies.
Mr. Plain Truth
The Resurrection Itself Exposes The Error
My Comments
Uhmm...no...Jesus did not define death as sleep. Do I die every night when I go to sleep? If I do, then I guess we should define waking up as being resurrected from the dead. I don't think Mr. Plain Truth is familiar with the concept of a euphemism. Death is the separation of body and spirit. Sleep is a temporary state of rest - no separation of body and spirit. You go to sleep at night, and you wake up in the morning. You don't die at night, and get resurrected in the morning.
"Sleep implies silence, rest and not conscious activity." Yes and no. When you are sleeping, your brain is still active and your senses are still engaged, albeit at a decreased level. You can hear, feel, smell, taste, and even see when you are sleeping. Not so when you die. You can talk in your sleep, you can walk in your sleep, you can eat and drink in your sleep, you can dream - you can even realize you're dreaming while you're dreaming - all of which demonstrate a certain level of consciousness. Not so when you die. You can have a certain level of awareness of things going on around you when you sleep. Not so when you die. So, no, Jesus did not "define death as sleep". Jesus used the word "sleep" in regard to Lazarus as a gentler way of saying he "died". It was a euphemism.
And, lest you think I am, in a way, making Mr. Plain Truth's case for him about the soul being completely unaware after death...no, I'm not. All of what I just said is in reference to the body, not the soul. Nowhere...absolutely nowhere...does the Bible say, "And when you die, your soul goes comatose." Or, "When you die, your soul goes to sleep." Actually, Mr. Plain Truth's argument about death being like sleep is an argument that runs contrary to what he believes about soul sleep because, again, being asleep, as opposed to being dead, implies one has a certain level of consciousness and perception. Soul sleep adherents believe there is absolutely zero level of consciousness and awareness in the soul after one dies.
Mr. Plain Truth
The Resurrection Itself Exposes The Error
If the righteous dead are already in heaven, the resurrection becomes unnecessary. Yet Scripture places supreme importance on it. Jesus declared that all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth, some to life, some to judgment (John 5:28–29). Peter plainly stated that David, though righteous, “has not ascended into the heavens” centuries after his death (Acts 2:29, 34).
Paul went further: if there is no resurrection, then the dead are lost (1 Corinthians 15:16–18). This statement only makes sense if the dead are unconscious, awaiting resurrection, not already rewarded.
My Comments
"If the righteous dead are already in heaven, the resurrection becomes unnecessary." Says who?! The Word of Mr. Plain Truth, not the Word of God. If no one can enter Heaven until Jesus dies and is resurrected, then how on earth can anyone say, as this guy does, that the Resurrection is unnecessary?! What about the spirits that were in prison that Jesus went and preached to while His body lay in the tomb (1 Peter 3:19-20)? They were in "prison". I.e., they were not in Heaven. They couldn't get into Heaven until Jesus' Resurrection opened the gates. In regard to those who have died since Jesus opened the gates of Heaven with His death and Resurrection, the Resurrection of the dead is still a necessary occurrence if they are to spend eternity with body and soul in either Heaven or Hell. It is at the Resurrection of the dead that body is reunited with soul.
And the other thing to note about 1 Peter 3:19-20, is why would Jesus be preaching to a bunch of spirits that were unable to hear what He was saying because they were "sleeping"? That makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever! Also, if these "spirits" were not "thinking souls" as Mr. Plain Truth claims, what good would preaching to them do? They can't hear you, they can't understand what you're saying, they have no way of reacting to or processing what it is you're preaching...so why bother? The doctrine of soul sleep turns this passage into utter nonsense.
My Comments
"If the righteous dead are already in heaven, the resurrection becomes unnecessary." Says who?! The Word of Mr. Plain Truth, not the Word of God. If no one can enter Heaven until Jesus dies and is resurrected, then how on earth can anyone say, as this guy does, that the Resurrection is unnecessary?! What about the spirits that were in prison that Jesus went and preached to while His body lay in the tomb (1 Peter 3:19-20)? They were in "prison". I.e., they were not in Heaven. They couldn't get into Heaven until Jesus' Resurrection opened the gates. In regard to those who have died since Jesus opened the gates of Heaven with His death and Resurrection, the Resurrection of the dead is still a necessary occurrence if they are to spend eternity with body and soul in either Heaven or Hell. It is at the Resurrection of the dead that body is reunited with soul.
And the other thing to note about 1 Peter 3:19-20, is why would Jesus be preaching to a bunch of spirits that were unable to hear what He was saying because they were "sleeping"? That makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever! Also, if these "spirits" were not "thinking souls" as Mr. Plain Truth claims, what good would preaching to them do? They can't hear you, they can't understand what you're saying, they have no way of reacting to or processing what it is you're preaching...so why bother? The doctrine of soul sleep turns this passage into utter nonsense.
Mr. Plain Truth
How This False Teaching Was Weaponized
How This False Teaching Was Weaponized
The belief in conscious dead did not remain a harmless idea. It became a powerful tool of control. By teaching that souls suffer in purgatory or eternal torment immediately after death, religious systems were able to instill fear, extract money and assert authority over the living. Prayers for the dead, masses, indulgences, relic veneration, saint intercession and apparitions all rest on the assumption that the dead are alive and accessible.
My Comments
This, folks, is nothing more than what you would find in the pastures of a cattle ranch. I would love to have Mr. Plain Truth explain to me, in what way, shape, or form the Catholic Church (which is THE religious system he is referring to) instills fear or extracts money or asserts authority over me, or anyone, with its teaching on Purgatory. Does the teaching on Purgatory cause any of you reading this right now to cower under your bed covers at night when you think about it? Does it cause you to give the Church some sort of illegitimate authority over you? Does it cause you to reluctantly turn over thousands of your hard earned dollars to the Church out of fear of...well, I'm not quite sure what...but it must be something, right?
Regarding "extracting money" from the living, what he is undoubtedly referring to here is the so-called selling of indulgences. Well, here's the thing - the Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught that one can "buy" an indulgence. And if you can't buy an indulgence, then an indulgence cannot legitimately be said to be sold. If indulgences were ever attempted to be sold, it was an illicit action that was contrary to the teaching of the Church. In other words, it was done contrary to what the Church has always taught in regard to indulgences. It was an abuse. It was a sin. So, no...the Church's teaching on Purgatory did not come about so that the Church could make money on the sale of indulgences or any such thing. That is an outright lie and there is absolutely no historical evidence to back up this false claim. Mr. Plain Truth is speaking a Plain Lie.
"Prayers for the dead, masses, indulgences, relic veneration, saint intercession and apparitions all rest on the assumption that the dead are alive and accessible." Well, yes and no. Prayers for the dead and "saint intercession" and apparitions do indeed rest on the assumption that the dead are alive and accessible. The Mass rests on the assumption that Jesus Christ gave His life for us and that He wants us to share in that life. Indulgences rest on the assumption that there is punishment due to sin even after the sin has been forgiven - as the Bible clearly shows us there is - and on the assumption that nothing with the stain of sin will enter Heaven. Not sure why he thinks "relic veneration" rests on the assumption that the dead are alive. I mean, they are alive, but I don't know why the veneration of a relic is dependent on that fact. The honor and respect given to a relic is given to the holy person that relic represents and, ultimately, it is given to Christ whose grace flowed abundantly into the soul of that particular holy person. So, even if that person was not "alive and accessible," but was "soul sleeping," it wouldn't make a difference.
{Okay, this has gotten a bit long, so I will finish up with this analysis/critique of Mr. Plain Truth's post on "soul sleep" in the next newsletter.}
My Comments
This, folks, is nothing more than what you would find in the pastures of a cattle ranch. I would love to have Mr. Plain Truth explain to me, in what way, shape, or form the Catholic Church (which is THE religious system he is referring to) instills fear or extracts money or asserts authority over me, or anyone, with its teaching on Purgatory. Does the teaching on Purgatory cause any of you reading this right now to cower under your bed covers at night when you think about it? Does it cause you to give the Church some sort of illegitimate authority over you? Does it cause you to reluctantly turn over thousands of your hard earned dollars to the Church out of fear of...well, I'm not quite sure what...but it must be something, right?
Regarding "extracting money" from the living, what he is undoubtedly referring to here is the so-called selling of indulgences. Well, here's the thing - the Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught that one can "buy" an indulgence. And if you can't buy an indulgence, then an indulgence cannot legitimately be said to be sold. If indulgences were ever attempted to be sold, it was an illicit action that was contrary to the teaching of the Church. In other words, it was done contrary to what the Church has always taught in regard to indulgences. It was an abuse. It was a sin. So, no...the Church's teaching on Purgatory did not come about so that the Church could make money on the sale of indulgences or any such thing. That is an outright lie and there is absolutely no historical evidence to back up this false claim. Mr. Plain Truth is speaking a Plain Lie.
"Prayers for the dead, masses, indulgences, relic veneration, saint intercession and apparitions all rest on the assumption that the dead are alive and accessible." Well, yes and no. Prayers for the dead and "saint intercession" and apparitions do indeed rest on the assumption that the dead are alive and accessible. The Mass rests on the assumption that Jesus Christ gave His life for us and that He wants us to share in that life. Indulgences rest on the assumption that there is punishment due to sin even after the sin has been forgiven - as the Bible clearly shows us there is - and on the assumption that nothing with the stain of sin will enter Heaven. Not sure why he thinks "relic veneration" rests on the assumption that the dead are alive. I mean, they are alive, but I don't know why the veneration of a relic is dependent on that fact. The honor and respect given to a relic is given to the holy person that relic represents and, ultimately, it is given to Christ whose grace flowed abundantly into the soul of that particular holy person. So, even if that person was not "alive and accessible," but was "soul sleeping," it wouldn't make a difference.
{Okay, this has gotten a bit long, so I will finish up with this analysis/critique of Mr. Plain Truth's post on "soul sleep" in the next newsletter.}
Closing Comments
I hope all of you have a great week!
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