Apologetics for the Masses #522 - Will Pope Leo XIV Preach John 3:16? Pastor Dan Delzell's Response (Part 3)

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Topic

Continuing my conversation with Lutheran Pastor Dan Delzell about his article in "The Christian Post" online magazine, titled: "Will Pope Leo XIV Preach John 3:16"?

General Comments

For those of you in the Greenville, South Carolina area, I wanted to let you know that I will be speaking, and emceeing, at the 13th Annual Marian Eucharistic Conference there the weekend of October 24/25.  Other speakers will be: Fr. Chris Alar, Fr. Donald Calloway, Fr. Joseph Mary Wolfe of EWTN, Russ Breault (if you haven't ever seen his presentation on the Shroud of Turin, it is incredible!) and Daniel Cellucci of the Catholic Leadership Institute.  For more information, and/or to register: https://meconferencesc.net/.

Introduction

This week, I continue my reply to Lutheran Pastor Dan Delzell in regard to what he had to say about my critique of the article he wrote for "The Christian Post" about Pope Leo XIV (see Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #520).  As I did in the last issue, I'll take what he said paragraph by paragraph, with my comments interspersed between his.  And, as I mentioned last time, my comments will not include anything on the thinking/strategy behind why I say what I say in my responses.  I will probably come back and do a "strategic analysis" of the conversation in another issue.

I'll pickup below by repeating the final section of the last issue - Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #521 - and then go from there.  

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Pastor Dan Delzell
In addition to occurring at conversion, sanctification (holy living) is also progressive. Justification, on the other hand, was completed at conversion. When Saul was converted on the Damascus road, he was instantly justified and made into a new creation. Every new believer is instantly justified and sanctified, and only begins to grow into spiritual maturity by walking closely with Jesus and following the leading of the Holy Spirit. For example, Paul's life of Christian sanctification (holy living) was a work in progress during the years that followed his dramatic conversion on the Damascus road.


My Comments
So, at the moment a person is saved, according to your theology, their "justification" is complete, but their sanctification is not.  So, their justification was 100%, what percentage was their sanctification?  50%?  25%?  10%?  If the Bible says that eternal life (justification) is the end of sanctification (Rom 6:22), then are you saying that partial sanctification gets you complete justification?  Or when Heb 12:14 says that we are to strive for the holiness (sanctification) without which no one will see the Lord, how sanctified does one have to be in order to see the Lord?  100%?  Obviously not, according to you.  50%?  25%?  10%?  

Furthermore, you state that Paul was "instantly justified" on the Damascus road.  (By the way, my Bible doesn't say that.  Can you give me book, chapter, and verse where yours does?)  Which means he was also instantly sanctified at the same time.  Yet, the Word of God tells us that Saul was not forgiven of his sins until he was baptized in Damascus.  Acts 22:16, "And now why do you wait?  Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His name."  Do you believe that a person can be justified and sanctified before their sins have been forgiven?    

Pastor Dan Delzell
Jesus used the term “born again” in the third chapter of John because spiritual birth is similar to physical birth. The notion that a Christian can “grow in justification” is comparable to saying that part of a teenager still needs to be born physically, be it a hand, foot, ear, etc. Physical birth doesn’t work that way, and neither does justification.

My Comments

Where exactly does the Bible use the analogy that you use here?  "The notion that a Christian can 'grow in justification' is comparable to saying that part of a teenager still needs to be born physically, be it a hand, foot, ear, etc.'  Physical birth doesn't work that way, and neither does justification."  Is that the Word of Dan, or the Word of God?  So, we can grow in sanctification...in holiness.  We can grow in righteousness.  We can grow in faith.  But we can't grow in justification?  Our justification cannot grow stronger?  Our justification cannot grow more confirmed?  Our justification cannot grow deeper?  2 Cor 3:18 says, "And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another."  So, we are growing in "His likeness," the likeness we took on when we were justified, but we are not growing in justification?  

Let me give you another analogy to think about: Let's say that, upon initial justification, I am like an 8 oz. cup filled to the brim with God's grace.  I am fully and completely justified.  But, as I grow in my justification, I become like a 10 oz. cup.  Still filled to the brim with God's grace.  Still fully and completely justified.  So, I am not "more" justified in the sense that I was, at any time, not completely justified.  I was completely justified as an 8 oz. cup.  And I am completely justified as a 10 oz. cup.  It's just that now, as a 10 oz. cup vs. an 8 oz. cup, I have a greater portion of God's grace.  And, maybe I could grow to be a 12 oz. cup.  Or a 14 oz. cup.  So, I am not "more" justified as a 10 oz. cup vs. an 8 oz. cup, but I have, nevertheless, grown in justification.  Going from an 8 oz. cup to a 10 oz. cup to a 12 oz. cup, I have been changed "into His likeness from one degree of glory to another".  Is that analogy not feasible?  If not, by what authority would you tell me my analogy is flawed? 


Pastor Dan Delzell
Do you agree with me John that no Christian has ever lived a perfect life of holiness and sanctification? Only Jesus lived a perfect and sinless life. Justification is perfect and complete at conversion, and sanctification begins at conversion. A believer's initial sanctification is perfect in the sense that the Holy Spirit is perfect; and it is also ongoing in the life of a Christian in the sense that followers of Christ do not perfectly obey the Lord in thought, word and deed.

My Comments

You apparently are not all that familiar with Catholic teaching, Pastor.  Nor with the Bible.  As a Catholic, I believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus, lived a perfect and sinless life.  And, in fact, that she was delivered from all sin at the moment of her conception.  The Word of God tells us that God Himself will put enmity - fierce hostility - between the serpent (Satan) and the woman (Mary) whose seed (Jesus) will crush the head of the serpent (Gen 3:15).  Can it be said that there is perfect enmity between a person who sins and Satan?  Also, in Rev 12:13-17, we see that the woman (Mary) who bears the male child who will rule all the nations with a rod of iron (Jesus) is, by a special grace of God, saved from the ancient serpent (Satan).  He never catches her.  Satan never catches Mary by a special grace from God Who has put enmity between her and him.    

Furthermore, does not Scripture say that Zechariah and Elizabeth, the parents of John the Baptist, "...were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless?"  If they were walking in "all" of God's commandments and ordinances "blameless," would that not suggest they lived a sinless life?  Plus, John the Baptist himself is said to be filled with the Holy Spirit his entire life, "even from his mother's womb".  If a person is "filled with the Holy Spirit" his entire life, even before he was born, would that possibly point to him living a sinless life?  

And I love how you play with words.  "A believer's initial sanctification is perfect," yet...it's not perfect.  It's perfect because the Holy Spirit is perfect, but it's imperfect because the believer is imperfect.  Could not the same be said of justification?  It's perfect because the Holy Spirit is perfect, but it's imperfect because the believer is imperfect.  You are arbitrarily applying one rule to sanctification and another to justification.  I assume you believe in Sola Scriptura, so please tell me where the Word of God does the same thing here as the Word of Dan?  

Again, I point to 2 Cor 3:18 and would like to ask you to explain how growing in His likeness, from one degree to another, is not growing in justification?


Pastor Dan Delzell
It is a shame that Catholics and Protestants couldn't get things figured out 500 years ago during the period of the Reformation. Rather than going their separate ways, what if the Catholic church and Martin Luther had been able to agree on three foundational points of Christian doctrine:

(1) "God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

(2) "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:26) An apple tree produces apples, and Christ produces good works in the life of every believer.

(3) Man is justified on the front end of his relationship with God, as evidenced by what Jesus told the thief on the cross who placed his faith in Christ: "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) The thief's faith was alive, and so he was washed, saved, redeemed, born again, justified, sanctified, and forgiven right there on the spot.

My Comments

Don't you mean, "It's a shame that Catholics couldn't get things figured out 500 years ago"?  First of all, thank you for recognizing that your faith tradition did not exist until 500 years ago when Martin Luther went his separate way from the church.  Secondly, again you are showing your ignorance of the Catholic Faith.  We believe in John 3:16, James 2:26, and Luke 23:43, just as we believe in every single verse of Scripture.  Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).  Paragraphs 219 and 458 directly quote John 3:16.  Other paragraphs in the CCC reference John 3:16.  Paragraph 1815 directly quotes James 2:26.  Paragraphs 2616 and 1021 directly mention the good thief and others cite that passage indirectly.  What we do not necessarily believe in, however, are your private, non-authoritative, fallible interpretations of those verses. 

In other words, Catholics have no issue at all with what you call "three foundational points of Christian doctrine".  We believe and teach those very things.  We believe John 3:16.  We believe James 2:26.  We believe that man is justified "on the front end of his relationship with God".  Where you have a problem with us, though, is that we do not believe your private, non-authoritative, fallible interpretations of those Scripture passages.  We believe the Word of God, Pastor, we don't believe the Word of Dan.  

We also believe James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."  We also believe Rom 2:6-7, "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing [good works] seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."  We also believe in 2 Peter 3:21, "Baptism, which corresponds to this [being saved through water] now saves you."  We also believe in John 6:53, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you."  We also believe in Matt 9:8, "When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, Who had given such authority [the authority on earth to forgive sins] to men."  And we believe in a whole lot more in the Scriptures that Lutherans apparently do not believe in.  

And, yes, it is a shame that Martin Luther decided to flaunt the authority of the Church founded by Jesus Christ and go his own way and rely solely upon his own private authority to start his own "church".  A church founded by a man, in Germany, in the 16th century, is not the church founded by Jesus Christ in Israel in the 1st century.


Pastor Dan Delzell
If Luther and the Catholic church had been able to agree on "Christianity 101," it could have laid a foundation for even broader reform in the church. And it could have led to important discussions about other matters of doctrine as well. Obviously, that is not how it played out.  


My Comments

"Christianity 101," Pastor, is that Jesus established a church that has authority...His authority...and we are to obey the teachings of that church in matters of faith and morals (Matt 28:20; 18:15-18; 16:18-19).  And, as you have indirectly pointed out above, that church was not the Lutheran church.  Martin Luther rebelled against the original church and its authority.  He brought division to Christianity with his novel dogmas of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura and his rejection of authority.  And look at the mess that has resulted from it.  There was no "Reformation," rather, what Martin Luther wrought should be called the "Deformation".  

{I'll pick up here next issue...}

Closing Comments

I should be able to finish up my response to Pastor Dan in the next issue.  I hope all of you have a great week.  Please keep the Bible Christian Society in your prayers.  We will be keeping you and yours in ours.

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Apologetics for the Masses