A Lutheran Priest on Catholicism - Apologetics for the Masses #563

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Topic

My dialogue with a Lutheran priest who does not like the Catholic Church.

Introduction

Don't know if you heard about this Cardinal Archbishop over in Algeria or not, but he said that the Catholic Church was not in Algeria to convert anyone.  Then, after Bishop Robert Barron issued a statement that was, basically, correcting the Cardinal on that, the Cardinal doubled down by saying that Catholics and members of other monotheistic religions (i.e., Jews and Muslims) have "better things to do" than try to convert one another.  I made a post on the "John Martignoni and the Bible Christian Society" Facebook page about that, and a Lutheran priest by the name of Timothy Selim (the pastor of Faith Lutheran Church in Mesick, Michigan) chimed in.  What follows is the dialogue I had with him about the Catholic Church.  

Challenge/Response/Strategy

John Martignoni - Original Facebook Post
Cardinal Jean-Paul Vesco, the archbishop of Algiers, Algeria, said that the Catholic Church is "not there to convert". After Bishop Robert Barron corrected him on that, the Cardinal doubled down by saying that Catholics and members of other monotheistic religions have “better things to do” than trying to convert one another.

I would like to ask Cardinal Vesco: What are some of these things that you believe are "better to do" than bringing someone to Jesus Christ - Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity - in the Eucharist?

Timothy Selim - Lutheran Priest 
We will welcome all who disagree with this apostate Bishop to the Confessional Lutheran Church! Bringing Christ and only Christ to all people!

My Response
Why leave the Church founded by Jesus over the words of an "apostate Bishop"? That makes no sense.

Comments/Strategy
So, is he referring to this one bishop as an "apostate" bishop because of what he said, or is he essentially saying that all bishops of the Catholic Church, by virtue of being Catholic, are "apostate" bishops?  I think it's probably the latter, especially since his last words about the "Confessional Lutheran Church" were, "Bringing Christ and only Christ to all people!"  Essentially implying that the Catholic Church brings someone, or something, other than, or maybe in addition to, Christ, to all people.  Sneaky little hobbitses...

Timothy Selim - Lutheran Priest
The Roman Church was not founded by Christ, the One, Holy and Apostolic Church was. That Church is the Confessional Lutheran Church.

My Response
So the One, Holy, Apostolic Church (by the way, why did you leave the word "Catholic" out?) founded by Jesus Christ is the church Martin Luther founded 1500 years after Christ lived? Tell me how that makes any sense?

The "Roman" Church can trace its founding, through historical documentation, back to St. Peter, through the office of the Bishop of Rome, and in other ways as well. Can you give me the historical evidence that traces the Confessional "Lutheran" Church back to anyone in the 1st century A.D.?

Comments/Strategies
The "One, Holy, and Apostolic Church"?  Really?!  The mere fact that he leaves the word "Catholic" out of his description of the church betrays the fact that he knows, at some level of his psyche, that he can't get around the historical facts about the Catholic Church being the church founded by Jesus Christ.  He has to play word games instead.  So, he claims that the "Confessional Lutheran Church" is the "One, Holy, and Apostolic Church"?  Which means he admits that it is not the Catholic, or universal, church.  The "Confessional Lutheran Church" was founded, as its name clearly implies, by Martin Luther, who lived in Germany, in the 1500's and, therefore, cannot be the church founded by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago in Judea.  Always ask for the evidence that shows the other guy's "church" can be traced back, historically, to the Apostles and, through the Apostles, to Jesus Christ.  You won't get any...because there isn't any...but keep asking nonetheless.  They will avoid even attempting to answer.  But, keep asking.

Timothy Selim - Lutheran Priest
The Roman Church left Apostolic teaching at the time of Hus and then Luther. The Lutheran Reformation restored Apostolic teaching and practice. You should read the Lutheran Confessions and see how many times they quote and refer to the Church Fathers.

My Response
Timothy Selim I have read the Lutheran Confessions. The fact that they "quote and refer" to Church Fathers is irrelevant as to determining whether or not the Lutheran church is the One, Holy, [Catholic] and Apostolic Church. Satan quotes Scripture. He knows Scripture much better than you or I do. Should we join the Church of Satan, then?

By the way, if referring to or quoting the Church Fathers makes one's church the authentic One, Holy, [Catholic], and Apostolic Church, have you by any chance read the Catechism of the Catholic Church? It quotes and refers to the Church Fathers way more than the Lutheran Confessions do.

Also, you should read the Early Church Fathers and you will see that the "Roman" Church taught in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries the same things that were being taught by the "Roman" Church in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and following centuries.

But, in the interest of hearing out the other side, can you give me some examples of how the "Roman" Church "left Apostolic teaching at the time of Hus and then Luther"?

Finally, if you believe the Church founded directly by Jesus Christ apostasized in the later centuries, then you believe that the gates of Hell did indeed prevail against the Church founded by Jesus even though He tells us Himself that they will not, right?

Comments/Strategy
Okay, a few things here.  First, notice that he indirectly admits that the Catholic Church was indeed the church founded by Jesus Christ by saying that it "left Apostolic teaching" at the time of Hus (late 1300's, early 1400's) and Luther (1500's).  Which means it was the "Apostolic" Church up until Hus/Luther, according to his argument.  Next, he makes the argument that the Lutheran church is now THE "Apostolic" church because the Lutheran Confessions (their statements of faith) quote the Early Church Fathers a number of times.  Well, he regretted that argument after I pointed out that Satan quotes Scripture, so why not worship in the Church of Satan?  And, even more to the point, the Catechism of the Catholic Church quotes the Church Fathers many times over what the number of times the Lutheran Confessions do.  So, by his own argument, that points to the Catholic Church as being THE "Apostolic" church. Pay very close attention to what they say, so that you can use their shoddy and illogical arguments against them, folks. Also, note how selective he is in what questions/arguments of mine he responds to. I wonder why?

Timothy Selim - Lutheran Priest
I have a personal copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I read it often and also like to listen to Relevant Radio, so much better than protestant radio. That does not change the fact that at the time of Luther the errors in their theology were not codified as dogma, ie, purgatory, indulgences and justification by faith. Luther wanted a discussion, the Pope excomunicated him. It was at Trent that the Roman Church actually began by dogmatizing error. Tradition is salutary and beneficial, but it is not equal with Scripture.

My Response
I find your post quite curious. Why would you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and listen to Catholic radio? If the Catholic Church is not the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church; and if it is riddled with "errors in theology" that have been "codified as dogma," why bother reading what it teaches and listening to those who espouse what it teaches?

By the way, what authority is it that you rely upon in order to infallibly declare that the Catholic Church has errors in its theology and that it has codified those errors as dogma? Martin Luther? If not Martin Luther, who then?

Comments/Strategy
This is where his arguments got a little bizarre.  First of all, wasn't really sure what he was trying to say.  But, secondly, the Catholic Church is an apostate church (in his eyes); yet, he reads the Catechism often and listens to Catholic radio?  What?!  Why would you do that?  As a Catholic, I would never listen to Baptist radio or Evangelical radio and certainly not Lutheran radio (although I don't know if there is such a thing).  And of course I would never read a Baptist or Evangelical or Non-Denominational or Lutheran or any other Protestant denomination's catechism, even if one of them had one like the Catholic Catechism  - which they don't.  It makes absolutely no sense to me, that if you think a number of the Catholic Church's teachings are theological poison, then why would you read anything by the Catholic Church or listen to Catholic radio?  I mean, would you eat some really good broccoli cheese soup if you knew it only had a little poison in it?

I think what's going on here is that, at some deep level, he knows the Catholic Church is the true Church - he is, essentially, admitting that with what he says here (about the Catechism and Catholic radio) - but there is too much pride to consciously allow that thought to percolate to the forefront of his brain. So, the Catholic Church is apostate, it has dogmatized error, it doesn't bring Jesus and only Jesus to the people...but, hey, let's go ahead and read Catholic doctrine and listen to Catholic radio.  Bizarre.  You know, I think I'm going to go find a really good Mormon radio station to listen to and start reading the Book of Mormon on a regular basis.

Timothy Selim - Lutheran Priest
Holy Scripture. Christ is the Head of the Church, not the Bishop of Rome.

My Response
Christ is indeed the Head of the Church, the Catholic Church has never claimed otherwise and to imply that it does is either deliberate ignorance of the highest level, or just pure malice. The Catechism of the Catholic Church - which you claim to have read often - states in many places that Jesus is the Head of the Church. E.g., paragraphs #747, 753, 782, 792-795, 807, 1547, and many other places. Given that, I have to sincerely doubt your word when you say that you have "read often" the Catechism.  

However, did Jesus not leave us with an earthly shepherd? Did he not say to Peter, "Feed My sheep? Feed My lambs? Tend My sheep?" Is it not the shepherd of the flock that does such things? Are you not the shepherd of Faith Lutheran Church in Mesick, MI?

Regarding Holy Scripture as being your authority, I claim that is false. That the Scriptures indeed are not your authority. Your authority is your personal, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation of the Scriptures, not the Scriptures themselves.

Can you, for example, tell me exactly where the Scriptures prohibit indulgences? Or where they deny the existence of Purgatory? Or where they say that we are justified, or saved, by "faith alone"?

Comments/Strategy
Okay, he basically states that the Catholic Church believes the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, is the head of the Church and not Jesus Christ.  Remember that, because I am going to pound him on that statement as this conversation goes along (which will be continued in the next newsletter).  By the way, notice - again! - how selective he is in answering my questions and responding to my arguments?  If you ever engage Protestants in this kind of a dialogue, that is exactly what will happen in response to your questions and arguments, too, so be prepared.

Timothy Selim - Lutheran Priest
Ephesians 2:8-9, Hebrews 9:27, Hebrews 10:12-14, Acts 8:30.

My Response
1) First, will you admit, based on your oft readings of the Catechism, and given my many citations from same, that the Catholic Church believes, and proclaims, that Jesus Christ is the head of the Church...yes or no?

2) Eph 2:8-9. Catholic response? Amen!!! That verse fits perfectly with Catholic doctrine. We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works. That is the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church. I believe that verse 100%, just like I believe in every verse of Scripture...100%!

However, I don't necessarily agree with your private, fallible interpretation of that verse - and neither does the rest of Scripture, as I will show below.

For example, Paul also wrote Eph 2:10, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Question: If we don't do the good works that God has prepared for us beforehand, that we SHOULD walk in them, can we be saved?

Rom 2:6-7 says that God will reward - with eternal life - those who do good works while seeking for glory and honor and immortality.

Gal 5:6, "Neither circumcision or uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love."

Matt 25:34-36; 41-43; 45-46 - feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. - inherit the Kingdom; don't do those things - eternal punishment.

Matt 25:14-30; the servants who did something with what their Master gave them...enter into the joy of their Master. The Sola Fide servant - the one who believed in his Master but did nothing with what his Master had given him? Outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Rom 2:13, James 2:24, James 2:20, Matt 7:21, Matt 19:16-17, Heb 12:14, Phil 2:12-13, and more...

We are saved by God's grace alone. Once saved, though, we can squander our inheritance, just like the Prodigal Son, through a lack of faith and sinful living.

3) Heb 9:27 - Catholics agree. Judgment comes after death. Personal judgment then, at the end of time, the General Judgment.

4) Heb 10:12-14 - Catholic response? Amen! Heb 8:3, Heb 7:25, Malachi 1:11. What is the "pure offering" Malachi 1:11 speaks of that will be offered from the rising of the sun to its setting in all the nations once the Lord's name is great among the nations? Do you know?

5) Acts 8:30 - a bit surprised you cited this verse, since it is Scripture teaching us that we do indeed need a guide - one who is guided by the Holy Spirit (i.e., infallible) - in order to fully understand Scripture, just like the Catholic Church teaches.

Comments/Strategy
First thing, was to ask him, again, that question about the Catechism and what the Catholic Church teaches about Jesus being the Head of the Church. I'm really wanting him to answer that one because he has, essentially, backed himself into a corner.  First, he says that he reads the Catechism quite often and that he listens to Catholic radio.  But then, he makes a statement which, in essence, says that the Catholic Church teaches that it is the Pope, not Jesus Christ, who is the Head of the Church.  So, I point out to him a number of places in the Catechism - which he reads often - that directly state Jesus is the Head of the Church.  Which means, he is either lying about reading the Catechism, or, more than likely, he is being rather duplicitous in his statement regarding Jesus being the Head of the Church and "not the Bishop of Rome".  He knows Catholics believe Jesus is the Head of the Church, yet he is trying to claim it is otherwise.   

Then I took each one of the verses he cited, which he apparently thinks somehow prove the error of Catholic teaching on particular doctrines, and show that those verses are perfectly in line with Catholic teaching.  And, truth be told, they don't necessarily line up so well with Lutheran teaching. 

Will he respond?  Of course not.  What did he do?  He left this thread and submitted a post on Sola Scriptura to start a whole separate thread.  Which I allowed, although, I didn't let him dodge the bullet so easily.  

Closing Comments

Next week: The Lutheran priest and a discussion of Sola Scriptura - the only universal Protestant dogma - and the Brave Sir Robin move of the Lutheran priest.  

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Closing Comments

 

Apologetics for the Masses