Apologetics for the Masses #554 - A Protestant Argument I've Never Heard Before!

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Topic

A Protestant argument for Once Saved Always Saved that I have never before encountered. This one takes the cake, as they say.

General Comments

Hey folks,

I want to tell you about a little booklet a friend of mine authored that is designed to prepare one for the next life. It's called: lead all souls to Heaven, by Kayce Maddux. It's not a scholarly tome or a deep spiritual treatise or any such thing, just a practical book written for regular people in the pews. The whole focus of the book is to help a person tap into the treasures of the Church to prepare themselves for what is to come, and particularly for doing so when facing death...your own or that of a loved one...squarely in the face. Short chapters. Easy to read. Easy to digest. I highly recommend this book for anyone who wants to get themselves "right with God" and also for anyone who has a loved one who is not long for this world - this book tells you the things you can do for them to prepare them for their journey.

You can check it out and get more information at her website: https://leadallsoulstoheaven.com/

Introduction

Okay, this week I am coming to you with an argument from a Protestant in regard to Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) that I have never heard before. It makes no logical sense; whatsoever, which is why I can pretty much guarantee that there is no common sense, logical, or scriptural argument that I can present to him that would make him budge from his position one iota - here is another one of the theologically insane. This is a job for the Holy Spirit! (Well, they're all jobs for the Holy Spirit, but especially so in a case like this.)

One of the new videos I posted a couple of weeks ago - Questions Protestants Can't Answer #31 - focused on 1 Peter 5:8, which says, “Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.” In the video, I ask the question: “Who is the devil seeking to devour?”

Basically, the premise of the video is this: If Once Saved Always Saved is true, then believers cannot be devoured by the devil, right? And, non-believers are already in the devil’s camp...they are unsaved...they’ve already been “devoured” by the devil. So, who exactly is it, then, that the devil is seeking to devour? Believers can’t be devoured, unbelievers have already been devoured. So, what the heck is Peter talking about? Who is the devil seeking to devour since there is no one left to devour?

That video prompted comments from someone whose screen name is @wolfwatchers (I guess I'm one of the wolves he's watching). Anyway, after I replied to his comments, I found his comeback to my reply to be a bit refreshing...and a bit disturbing, all at the same time. Refreshing, because the guy actually gave me direct answers to the questions I had asked him. That is exceedingly rare in the Protestant world's interactions with Catholics - at least, in its interactions with this Catholic. Disturbing, because he said something I had never heard from a Protestant before...ever! Now, it's not disturbing because I had never heard it before, but rather because it is totally bereft of logic. I mean, it just doesn't make sense - as you'll see below. But, this "argument" that he put forth is what allowed him to not hesitate in the least to answer the questions I put to him. So, I have to give him kudos for originality.

Anyway, I recommend you watch the Questions Protestants Can't Answer #31 video - it's only about 3 minutes long - and then jump into @wolfwatchers comments.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Video - Questions Protestants Can’t Answer, #31 (Who is the devil seeking to devour?)
Summary: According to 1 Peter 5:8, the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour. But, if OSAS is true, then the saved can never be unsaved, which means they can’t be devoured by the devil. And, the unsaved have, essentially, already been devoured by the devil. Which means, there is no one left for the devil to devour. So, again, who is it, exactly, that the devil is seeking to devour? If OSAS is true, then 1 Peter 5:8 makes no sense.

Response from @wolfwatchers
Being devoured by the devil is not losing salvation. Devoured or not, once you’re sealed with the Holy Spirit there's no unsealing before redemption - once sealed always sealed (Ephesians 1:13-14)

1 Corinthians 5:5 - To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Is salvation a gift from God?????????

Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Romans 11:29, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” and yet you’re saying God’s gift of salvation is revocable!!!

My Reply (@CrimsonCatholic)
Thank you for your comments. Obviously, I disagree with your interpretations of Scripture. And, if you don't mind, I would like to ask you a few questions about Scripture to better understand why you believe what you believe.

Just 5 questions:
1) First of all, are you infallible in your interpretations of Scripture...yes or no?

2) In John 15, it says Jesus is the vine...who are the branches of the vine? Are the branches of the vine that is Jesus believers...yes or no?

3) In Heb 6:4-6, it talks about "those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come - is that describing believers...yes or no?

4) In Rom 11:17-23, Paul talks about the branches of the olive tree (Jesus). In verse 21, he says that if God did not spare the natural branches (the Jews) from being cut off, neither will He spare the wild olive shoots (the Gentiles) who have been grafted into the tree. Verse 22: "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise, you, too, will be cut off." How can they be cut off if once saved always saved is true?

5) 1 Tim 4:1, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..." The Holy Spirit says it is possible to depart from the faith by believing false doctrines. You can depart from the faith unless you first have the faith. So, how can once saved always saved be true if a person can indeed depart from the faith?

Thanks!

Comments/Strategy
First, start with a question that pertains to authority. Are you an infallible interpreter of Scripture...yes or no? If, yes, give me Scripture - or something - as to why I should believe that you are infallible in your interpretations. And, if you claim infallibility, how can you deny the Church's claim of infallibility? If, no, then by what authority are you telling me I'm wrong in my interpretations? Or that the Church is wrong in what she teaches? You know, in real estate the key phrase is: "Location, location, location!" In apologetics, the key phrase is: "Authority, authority, authority!"

The next 4 questions...all from Scripture...pertain to OSAS. Each of those Scripture passages says, "Not on my watch," to OSAS.

@wolfwatchers
1) I'm human like you we both can wrong on our interpretation

2) John 15 the branches are believers

3) Hebrews 6 : context is found in Hebrews 5:12 its all one thought Hebrew 5:12-6:4 and its comparing 2 groups of BELIEVERS one mature one immature, and the heb6 portion is saying once your mature its impossible to go back to repentance and recrucify the lord this is not about salvation justification or going to heaven, or losing salvation its a call to spiritual maturity

4) Romans 11 start at the beginning read the entire chapter, he's talking about the fall of Israel the entire group not individuals Israelites but the entire group when he talks about Israel and gentiles being cut off its the entire group not individuals, or individual salvation like your using it as, but its about Gods' ability to cut off entire groups and graft them back in, as shown in verse 11

5) Yes we can depart from the faith - run away, walk away, fall away, whatever you want to call it. But none of that equates to a loss of salvation. We should do everything in our power to never do that but that doesn't mean we are not saved. Salvation is a gift not a reward (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6). When we heard the gospel and believed it we were sealed with the Holy Spirit UNTIL redemption. The word UNTIL dictates the duration of the sealing and its until redemption, not until we walk away from the faith or give heed to seducing spirits - UNTIL redemption!

Ephesians 1:13-14, “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Next, when we believed not only were we sealed UNTIL redemption, we were Justified from ALL things. Now this is the part no catholic could ever wrap their mind around or they wouldn't be catholic: “All that believe ARE Justified from ALL things,” - not some things or not most things - “but giving heed to seducing spirits: no ALL THINGS!

Acts 13:38-39, “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins. And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

My Reply
First of all, thank you for your direct answers to my questions. I have to say that in almost 30 years of working the evangelization fields, I have rarely found anyone willing to just give honest, direct, and straightforward answers to my very simple questions. So, again...thank you for that. Now, to respond to your answers:

1) Since you admit to being fallible in your interpretations of Scripture, then will you admit that your responses to my questions #2 - #5 could...possibly...be wrong? Yes or no?

2) In John 15:1-6, I agree with you 100% that the branches are believers. The Word of God pretty much says that (verse 5). That being the case, though, given your belief that Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is true, how do you explain that some of the branches are cut off from the vine...cut off from Jesus Christ...for not producing fruit? How can you be cut off from Jesus Christ if OSAS is true? Plus, what does the Word of God say happens to those branches that are cut off? They are cast forth, wither (i.e., die), and are thrown into the fire to be burned - an obvious reference to Hell.

So, again, in John 15:1-6, we see that believers can be cut off from Christ, cast forth, wither/die (spiritually), and be thrown into the fires of Hell - all for not producing fruit (i.e., good works). How do you reconcile OSAS with John 15:1-6?

3) First point to make, is that since you are not infallible in your interpretations of Scripture, then everything you said about Hebrews 6 could be wrong, right? Next point to make, is that your interpretation simply does not make any sense. This passage is not talking to 2 separate groups of believers. Heb 5 and 6 is referring to one group of believers - the Hebrews he is writing to - that the writer says should be mature believers by now (Heb 5:12), but aren't. He, therefore, encourages them to move on to a more mature faith (Heb 6:1). Same group of folks, not 2 different groups of believers.

And Heb 6 is not saying that, "once you're mature it's impossible to go back to repentance and recrucify the lord," how do you even get there? It's very clearly saying that those who have "once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come," (Heb 6:4-5) - i.e., mature believers - cannot be restored to repentance IF they then commit apostasy - fall away - since, by doing so, they are, essentially, crucifying the Son of God again and holding Him up to contempt. That word "if" is very important! Read verses 7 and 8 for the context! This passage is talking about believers who turn against God. Are you saying that they are still saved even though they've turned against God and they re-crucify Christ and hold Him up to contempt and shame? Really?!

4) Again, first point to make. Since you admitted that you are not infallible, will you admit that everything you said about Rom 11 could be wrong...yes or no? 2nd point: Yes, in Romans 11, Paul is talking about Israel, in general, but he is also talking about individual Israelites, as well. It is both/and, not either/or. We know this because Paul is talking about the "branches" - plural. Not, the branch - as in all of Israel as a branch. We also know this because there were any number of Jews who were not cut off from the olive tree (Christ), because they became believers. So, the passage cannot be talking about "all" of Israel as one entire homogenous group. Just like it is not talking about "all" Gentiles as one entire homogenous group. Because we know that there were a lot of Gentiles who did not believe in Christ. So, no, this is not simply referring to "groups" as homogenous wholes. It is also referring to individuals within those groups.

In fact, it is referring to individuals moreso than it is to groups. We know this because it is not a group that has faith or doesn't have faith, it is individuals within a group that do or do not have faith. Rom 11:20, "They [the Jews] were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith." Again, though, not all Jews were broken off and not all Gentiles were grafted in. So, individuals within the groups are being referred to here more specifically than are the two groups - Jews and Gentiles.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right and Rom 11 is referring to Jews and Gentiles as simply entire groups. Well, your argument still falls flat because what you are saying is that God can indeed cut off an entire group of believers - i.e., the Gentiles - if they do not "continue in His kindness." Otherwise, they, too, shall be cut off. Once Saved Always Saved? I don't think so. Unless you consider being cut off from Christ as not being a question of losing one's salvation.

5) "Yes we can depart from the faith - run away, walk away, fall away, whatever you want to call it. But none of that equates to a loss of salvation."  Really?! You can leave the faith. You can lose your faith. You can run, walk, fall away from your faith. And you're still saved? Really?! Again, I have to point out, first and foremost, that you have admitted to not being infallible in your interpretations of Scripture. And I have to tell ya, that is never more evident then in this interpretation you've come up with here. We're saved by faith alone, and once we're saved we cannot never lose our salvation, even if we later lose the very faith that saved us. Did I get that right?

Second of all, listen to what the Word of God says about that: "And without faith it is impossible to please Him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him," (Heb 11:6). But, according to the Word of Wolfwatchers, you're still saved if you lose your faith. Also from the Word of God: "...but My righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him," (Heb 10:38). But, according to the Word of Wolfwatchers, if you shrink back from your faith,and God has no pleasure in you, you're still saved. Right?

"Salvation is a gift not a reward (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6)." Well, that's very interesting. The Word of God has this to say on that topic: "

Colossians 3:23-24, “Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward.” What is the "inheritance" of a Christian? Salvation.

Hebrews 10:35-36, “Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.” What is the "great reward" that is promised? Salvation?

Hebrews 11:6, “And without faith it is impossible to please Him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.” How does God reward those who seek Him? With salvation.

Salvation, according to the Word of God, is both a free gift and a reward - both/and, not either/or. So, should I believe the Word of God, or the Word of Wolfwatchers?

Eph 1:13-14; Acts 13:38-39; Rom 5:9 - you interpret these as saying that once a person believes...has faith...then there is absolutely nothing that they can do which would cause them to lose that salvation - even if they later deny the faith that saved them! Have you ever read the Parable of the Sower of the Seeds? "As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away," (Matt 13:20-21).

Then there is 2 Peter 20-21, which absolutely obliterates your belief. "For if, after thay have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them." If what you are saying is true, and once a person is saved there is nothing that can cause them to be unsaved, then how can it be worse for a man to have been saved (escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) and then be entangled again by the defilements of the world as opposed to "never having known the way of righteousness"? How can the last state be worse than the first?

Comments/Strategy
#5 is the argument that I have never heard before. That you can lose your faith yet still be saved. That's because once you have faith, you are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit. And once the Holy Spirit has sealed you, well...that's it! Katy bar the door. You can lie, cheat, steal, murder, worship false gods, renounce your faith, etc. and...guess what? You're still saved! You've been sealed, brother! Usually, people will say that a person who does those things "wasn't really saved in the first place," which has logical problems all of its own, but at least has some modicum of logic to it. But, never...never...have I heard someone say that, "Yes, you can lose your faith, but that's okay, because you're still saved." That makes no sense, whatsoever!

So, how to respond to the purely illogical? Point out that he has admitted his interpretations could be wrong (again!) and then just quote some Scripture that shows what he is saying makes no logical sense, nor does it make any scriptural sense. And then pray the Holy Spirit will cause the blinders to fall from his eyes and that a seed will be planted.

I want you to notice something here, though. You see how he did not hesitate at all, nor did he hem and haw, in answering my questions? That's because he wasn't afraid of being put into a theological corner by those questions. Why? Because, it doesn't matter - according to @wolfwatchers - if someone loses their faith or not - they're still saved! You can't put someone in a theological corner if they live in a theological circle. And, not only does it not matter if someone loses their faith in regards to their salvation, but @wolfwatchers can completely change the context of any given passage to fit his beliefs. I mean, what he did with Heb 6:4-6 was ridiculous.

This guy is the theological equivalent of a greased pig. If you believe one time, that's it. After you believe you can become a high priest in some satanic cult, commit murder, adultery, and whatever else your heart desires and that's okay because you know what? That one time you believed...you were sealed by the Holy Spirit. So, you're good to go...

Sola Scriptura leads to theological insanity.

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a great week!

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