Apologetics for the Masses #551 - I'm a Professional...Don't Try This At Home

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Topic

A Protestant at the edge of the Protestant theological spectrum.

Introduction

Okay, I'm trying to get my first podcast done and pretty much everything is working against me. Internet goes down. My office is right next door to a pet groomer and, of course, today she has had 2 or 3 dogs in there and one or more of them has been barking all morning long. Thin walls. I don't want my first official podcast to have dogs barking in the background. I know that there's probably editing software that would solve that problem for me, but, learning the software will take some time. I want to get this out by tomorrow. Then, when the dogs finally stop barking, it starts raining cats and dogs, and it sounds like a bunch of people are banging on the roof with hammers...very loud.

All of that is to say, that I decided to put off recording the podcast until tomorrow, which is when I would usually work on my newsletter. So, I'm doing the newsletter today, but it's not going to be a very in depth one. Just so happens that yesterday - Wednesday - I got an email out of the blue from a woman (Cheryl L.) who asked to be taken off my newsletter list. I'm guessing that one of you guys probably know her, or have had run-ins with her, and signed her up for the newsletter, because I know she never would have never done so herself (as you'll see from our "dialogue"). But, not only did she ask to be taken off the subscriber list, she took some gratuitous potshots at the Catholic Church.

So, I responded. It's what I do. Turns out, this woman is kinda out there...theologically speaking. The thing is, though, that I have come across a decent number of Protestants with pretty much the same, or very similar, thinking over the years. So, the essence of what she says is not "rare" in the Protestant experience, but definitely not mainstream. Which means some of you may have encountered something similar in your experiences. That being said, all I'm going to do is simply present you with the back and forth between us, sans commentary - as I think what I'm doing in the conversation should be pretty evident to you - and then close with a brief summary as to my recommendation on how to deal with folks like this.

(And please pray that I'll be able to get the podcast recorded and posted tomorrow!)

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Cheryl L.
Please remove me from your list. I believe that the Catholic Church is misguided and does not report directly to God the Father. I do not believe that there need to be priests between any man and his heavenly father. This is not biblical at all. I also do not believe that the catholic pope is unnecessary position in the church. Mary has also been placed in a higher position than she ought to have. The truth that Christ built his church on was Peter‘s declaration that “thou Art the Christ, the son of the living God.” It is that declaration upon which the church is built, Not Peter himself.

My Response
I'll be happy to remove you from our list. Although, I do have a couple of questions for you:

1) Do you believe that Christians, before they speak of other people's beliefs, should make sure they understand those beliefs correctly so as not to spread falsehoods about the faith of others...yes or no?

Obviously, someone who knows you added your email to our subscriber's list. It was probably a Catholic who did so because that Catholic believes you to have misunderstandings about the Catholic Faith. Otherwise, why add you to my subscriber list? Which further means, you are obviously spreading these false beliefs you mentioned about the Catholic Church to others. I mean, it's pretty obvious to me, just from the little you said in your email, that you have some major misunderstandings of what the Catholic Church teaches and why. So, again, I ask: Should a Christian make sure they understand the beliefs of others correctly so as not to spread falsehoods about those beliefs...yes or no? Isn't that what Jesus would want?

2) Do you know what language Jesus and the Apostles spoke? It was Aramaic. Do you know what the word for "rock" is in Aramaic? Kepha. So, in Matthew 16 when Jesus said, "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My church," do you know what the Apostles actually heard? "Thou art kepha and upon this kepha I will build My church." It is quite obvious, if you know that Jesus spoke Aramaic, that Peter is the kepha upon which Jesus will, and has, built His Church.

Actually, one more question: Are you an infallible interpreter of Scripture...yes or no?

Cheryl L.
I go by what the Holy Spirit tells me. And when I read this passage, the Holy Spirit told me that Peter’s declaration of who Christ was was The Rock, not Peter. I do not worship men. I worship Christ, the sun, God, the father and Holy Spirit.

My Response
Scripture tells us to "test" the spirits. So, I hope you don't mind if I test your spirit.

Can the Holy Spirit tell you what the pillar and ground of the truth is for all Christians? Is it the Bible...yes or no?

Cheryl L.
Christ is the way the truth in the life. No one comes to the father but through him.

My Response
And that is exactly what Catholics believe and teach. If you say otherwise, then you are spreading lies about the Catholic Church. Is that what a Holy Spirit-guided Christian does...spread lies about another person's beliefs?

Cheryl L.
I spread no lies. You are a liar, and your church was founded by the father of lies.

My Response
Are you afraid to answer my question?

What is the pillar and ground of the truth for all Christians? Is it the Bible...yes or no?

Cheryl L.
Christ came in and he did away with the priesthood. Catholics reinstated this tradition. But Christ is our high priest, and we no longer have a need for any other earthly priest.

Hebrews 7:26-28

26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, [a]harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

My Response
If Christ did away with the priesthood, then why does the New Testament talk about bishops? You do know that bishops are priests, don't you?

Also, are you familiar with Korah's Rebellion in the Book of Numbers, chapter 16? It was a rebellion against the priesthood. Now, you say there is no priesthood in the New Testament, yet, in the Letter to Jude, verse 11, it says that folks in the New Testament era are perishing in Korah's Rebellion. How can people be rebelling against the priesthood in the New Testament, if there is no priesthood? And, again, how are there ordained bishops in the New Testament if there is no priesthood?

Cheryl L.
Why are you believing that the scripture I gave you is wrong? You Catholics me say the passages are about bishops but I do not believe that is what the word is. It is talking about Elders and overseers and the men that help to run the church. That is very biblical and very different duties than that of a priest

My Response
The bishops were ordained by the laying on of hands. That is exactly how you get a priest! And, no, I don't believe the Scripture is wrong, but I do believe your fallible interpretation of the Scripture is wrong.

You still haven't answered my questions: What is the pillar and ground of the truth for all Christians? Is it the Bible...yes or no? And, are you infallible in your interpretations of Scripture...yes or no?

Cheryl L.
I believe the Old Testament and the Gospels are the pillar. And the book of Revelation. There are parts of all of the other books that I believe are man’s interpretation and not a direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

And, no, no one is infallible!

My Response
God gave you, Cheryl L., not the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the authority to decide what is and is not authentic Scripture!!!

Wow!!!

By the way, wrong answer about the pillar. The Bible tells us that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15). So, either the Holy Spirit got it wrong, or it’s not the Holy Spirit telling you how to interpret Scripture. And, since we know the Holy Spirit is never wrong, and since you’ve directly admitted to not being infallible in your interpretations of Scripture, then that means the Holy Spirit definitely is not guiding you in your interpretations of Scripture, right? I mean, what mistakes does the Holy Spirit make? So, maybe it’s some other spirit that is giving you your interpretations of Scripture?

Cheryl L.
You twist and turn my words. Just like Satan. Hmmm

My Response
Oh, because I showed you that you really don't know the Bible like you think you do - which means the Holy Spirit really isn't talking in your ear - and because I called you out on your audacity of believing that you are in a position to be the judge over what is and is not inspired Scripture, you say I'm twisting your words! How convenient. Instead of admitting that there are indeed some things about Scripture about which you are wrong and ignorant of, you instead attack me. Is that what a "Christian" does?

Why don't you show a little humility, Cheryl, and admit that maybe, just maybe, you're not properly understanding some things about the Catholic Church just as you have demonstrated that you are not properly understanding some things about the Bible?

Here's another question about the Bible that I guarantee you can't answer: What did Jesus say is necessary in order to have eternal life?

And you still haven't answered my scriptural question about how it is folks in the New Testament could be rebelling against the priesthood (Jude, verse 11) if there was no New Testament priesthood?

Cheryl L.
{No response}

And there never will be. Her last email to me was to tell me to stop "harassing" her. I love it! Out of the blue she comes at me and attacks my faith, and when I respond, and keep responding to her continuing emails, I'm the one harassing her.

Summary
When you encounter someone like this, run for the hills. The woman is pixillated (ref: Mr. Deeds Goes to Town...the original). If you are trying to argue with a Protestant to whom the Holy Spirit speaks directly (according to them) and who has conferred upon themselves the authority to decide which parts of the Bible are and are not the inspired Word of God, then you are entering into a contest with both hands and feet tied, blindfolded, and gagged.

Any time you would try to show them, from the Bible, that what they’re saying makes no sense, all they have to do is say, “Well, I believe that passage you're quoting is from men and is not the inspired Word of God.” Or, if you would ask by what authority they claim their interpretation of any given Scripture passage is accurate, all they have to say is, “Because the Holy Spirit told me so.” You might as well be beating your head against a concrete wall.

So, I tried to toss a few seeds of the truth out there, but I'm shaking the dust off of my sandals pretty quickly with one like this. That mental fog is so thick that there is pretty much a total absence of logic and common sense. You cannot reason with the irrational. All one can do in a circumstance such as this is pray that the Holy Spirit will one day cause something in this person’s life to occur that will act as a strong wind to blow away the fog and allow even just the tiniest glimmer of light to break through.

Closing Comments

I hope all of you and your families have a happy and safe 4th of July weekend. May God bless America!

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