Share on
Apologetics for the Masses #532 - Conversation With An Atheist (Part 4)
Unsubscribe/Subscribe
https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/unsubscribe - to unsubscribe from this newsletter
https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter - to subscribe to this newsletter
Topic
A "dialogue," of sorts, with an atheist about the reasonableness of considering God.
General Comments
Hey folks,
2 things:
1) For all of you guys living up in the Northeast part of these United States, just a little heads up that I'll be speaking at the 25th Annual Worcester Diocesan Men's Conference in Worcester, MA, on Saturday, March 21st. For more information on the conference, the speakers, and/or to register, click here: 2026 Worcester Diocesan Men's Conference.
2) Please keep my wife, Janel, in your prayers. She has been experiencing extremely elevated blood pressure the last several days - we're talking stroke or heart attack levels - which resulted in an emergency room visit and a number of tests, scans, etc. being done. Everything came back negative and the doctor gave her some medication to control it. The medication appears to be working, but if you could say a prayer (or two) for her, we would greatly appreciate it.
Introduction
In this newsletter I'll reply to Barry the Atheist's last email to me. He was responding to what I had last said to him, which I published in Issue #529: Apologetics for the Masses #529. His latest reply was, as I said in the last newsletter...pathetic. And, it was very Protestant...in two ways. Did you pick up on what he did, and didn't do, that is oh so common for one to encounter in discussions with Protestants?
What he didn't do, was to respond - in any way, shape, or form - to the questions/arguments I posed to him in my last reply. He just completely ignored them. Can't tell you how many times I've had that happen to me in conversations with Protestants. They are either unwilling, or unable, to answer my questions/arguments, so they just ignore them. Barry the Atheist did the same.
What he did do, was to, essentially, change the subject. The doctrinal dance, of sorts. Protestants do that all the time. They can't, or won't, answer what they've been asked, so they switch the subject. Oh, he stayed in the ballpark of the topic of conversation - or maybe the parking lot of the ballpark - but he posed a straw man argument based on something I never said, nor even implied, and then went about making the most ridiculous argument in response to his straw man argument. And he's thinking his argument is a big "gotchya" moment. Well, we'll see...
So, below, is my latest volley in my conversation with Barry the Atheist. First, I'll print his last reply in its entirety, and then I'll reprint it with my comments interspersed amongst his.
Again, for full context, you might want to go back and read my last reply to him that was in Issue #529: Apologetics for the Masses #529.
Challenge/Response/Strategy
I could write a book to address the numerous unnecessary verbiage you typically involve yourself in, but in your closing remarks you insist it is not "reasonable" for me to neglect the question of god's existence.
So please tell me: do I sin when I neglect the question of god's existence long enough to devote my mind entirely to avoiding the drunk driver headed toward me? What if I'm running to a child being attacked by a dog...do I sin if I devote my mind so entirely to rescuing the child that I totally neglect the question of god's existence in that circumstance?
If you answer "yes" to both, then do you harp at literally all unbelievers when you find them doing things that could possibly indicate they are not thinking about god? Or do you sometimes commit the sin of staying silent in order to prioritize peace over spiritual conviction? If you know the store clerk is an unbeliever and he or she hands you the change, do you jask whether they were thinking about the importance of god while they were handing you that change? After all, according to you, if they neglected to think about god long enough to hand you the correct change, this was totally irrational and unreasonable.
If you give a "no" answer to either question about possible circumstances in which it might be reasonable to neglect thinking about god, then you are agreeing with me that there can be times when neglecting the issue of "god" can be reasonable and rational.
What if I'm a school bus driver, and thinking about "god" when I'm trying to get proper sleep at night gives me insomnia, and of course the more sleep I lose the prior night, the more dangerous I become as a drowsy driver for those kids the next morning? Can I be reasonable to use the "dangerous insomnia" excuse to justify neglecting god when I'm in the process of trying to get proper rest? Or is the unbeliever's thinking about god so important that you'd tell me to keep god in my thoughts always, and if that means I end up falling asleep at the wheel and driving those kids off a cliff to their deaths, this is just god's mysterious ways?
If you dare answer that certain scenarios might justify the unbeliever to devote zero thoughts to "god", you open a Pandora's Box that you'll never close, and we'd have to wonder how many other situations would justify us to neglect thinking about god...and you might get a nasty surprise: the normal busy unbelieving mom or dad cannot justly be called "unreasonable" for most of the times that they refuse to consider "god". Only fools would accuse an atheist mother of sinning if she purchased food for her toddler at the store and didn't think about god during the entire act.
Secondly, the catholic church has not dogmatically defined what minimal level of brain cells an unbeliever must use and when, in order for their consideration of "god" to be minimally "reasonable". So it's likely that whatever answer you give me here will not carry the authority of the RC church, but will be only your speculation.
So unless you can show that the unbeliever of today is always unreasonable to neglect thinking about "god" in all possible circumstances in which they are conscious, you are going to lose this debate by opening doors of possibility that you won't be able to close.
---------------------------------------------------
Barry the Atheist
I could write a book to address the numerous unnecessary verbiage you typically involve yourself in, but in your closing remarks you insist it is not "reasonable" for me to neglect the question of god's existence.
My Comments
Please do write a book. Maybe the title could be: How An Atheist Couldn't Respond to a Catholic's Arguments. Kind of catchy, don't you think?
And, yes, after showing how your arguments were completely off base because they were founded on flawed assumptions and premises, I did indeed propose the idea that it is not reasonable for you to completely neglect the question of God's existence.
Barry the Atheist
So please tell me: do I sin when I neglect the question of god's existence long enough to devote my mind entirely to avoiding the drunk driver headed toward me? What if I'm running to a child being attacked by a dog...do I sin if I devote my mind so entirely to rescuing the child that I totally neglect the question of god's existence in that circumstance?
My Comments
For someone who views himself as a rational thinker, your argument here is rather irrational and, in a word, pathetic. For one thing, where did I say, or even imply, that one must devote every waking second, every single electrical impulse of thought, to the question of whether or not God exists? And, please, don't try to come back with some twisted logic that by my saying the question of God's existence is the "most important consideration of man's existence", that that somehow translates to my saying the question of God's existence is the only question...or consideration...of man's existence. "Oh, but John," you'll say, "if it's the most important consideration of man's existence, then it should be the only consideration of man's existence." Sorry, but to think the one leads to, or even implies, the other is irrational and illogical.
For example, do you have someone in your life who is the most important person in your life? Does that mean you should spend every waking second of your life with that person to the exclusion of all others? Of course not. Is your job the most important means you have of supporting yourself and your family (assuming you have a family)? If it is, does that then mean you should spend every waking moment at your job? Of course not. Is there something in your life that you consider more important than sending harassing emails to Catholic apologists whom you have never met? If there is, then does that not mean you should not spend any time whatsoever sending harassing emails to Catholic apologists whom you have never met? And, if there isn't anything in your life more important than that, then why am I not getting harassing emails from you every few minutes or so all day long and every day?
I'm disappointed in you, Barry. That's really the best you can do?
Barry the Atheist
If you answer "yes" to both, then do you harp at literally all unbelievers when you find them doing things that could possibly indicate they are not thinking about god? Or do you sometimes commit the sin of staying silent in order to prioritize peace over spiritual conviction? If you know the store clerk is an unbeliever and he or she hands you the change, do you ask whether they were thinking about the importance of god while they were handing you that change? After all, according to you, if they neglected to think about god long enough to hand you the correct change, this was totally irrational and unreasonable.
My Comments
Where, exactly, Barry the Atheist, did I claim that it would be "totally irrational and unreasonable" for an unbeliever to not think about the question of God's existence for any period of time at all? I didn't. You made that up. You know, it shows a pronounced weakness in one's arguments when you have to make up specious arguments and place them in your opponent's mouth as if they had made those arguments, when they never did.
By the way, why do you limit your argument to just "unbelievers"? Shouldn't the same hold true for believers, at least, by your standards of logic? I mean, wouldn't it be totally irrational and unreasonable for believers to not think about God every second of their existence, according to the logic of your made up argument?
But I never made such a claim about unbelievers, did I, Barry? Rather, did I not say, that it is rational and reasonable for any given individual to, and I quote: "spend a serious amount of time, thought, and effort" on the question of God's existence? Does "a serious amount of time" mean the same thing in your world as "every second of every day, 24/7/365"?
What's going on here, Barry, is that in order to avoid the fact that I thoroughly demolished your arguments for spiritual laziness...for the supposed "rationality" of not ever, even once, considering the question of God's existence, you are having to make up arguments that I never made, and then try to tear them down with a 3rd grade level of reasoning. I mean, you're not very good at countering even your own made up arguments. Which is why you probably didn't even take a stab at answering the arguments I actually made. Why don't you try going back and reading my arguments and responding to them as I made them? We were arguing about whether or not it was rational to ever consider the existence of God. We were not arguing about whether or not it was rational to never not consider the existence of God. You completely inverted the argument. I wonder why?
Barry the Atheist
If you give a "no" answer to either question about possible circumstances in which it might be reasonable to neglect thinking about god, then you are agreeing with me that there can be times when neglecting the issue of "god" can be reasonable and rational.
My Comments
Again, my question to you is: Where did I say, or even imply, that one must think about the question of God's existence every second of every hour of every day, 365 days a year? And, that by not doing so, one is being irrational or unreasonable? Don't put words in my mouth, Barry. It weakens your whole line of argumentation, such as it is. By the way, when you say "there can be times when neglecting the issue of 'god' can be reasonable and rational," then are you not inherently agreeing with me that there can be times where thinking about the issue of God can be reasonable and rational? I believe you are indeed doing so. Looks like you just contradicted your own arguments. Thank you.
Barry the Atheist
What if I'm a school bus driver, and thinking about "god" when I'm trying to get proper sleep at night gives me insomnia, and of course the more sleep I lose the prior night, the more dangerous I become as a drowsy driver for those kids the next morning? Can I be reasonable to use the "dangerous insomnia" excuse to justify neglecting god when I'm in the process of trying to get proper rest? Or is the unbeliever's thinking about god so important that you'd tell me to keep god in my thoughts always, and if that means I end up falling asleep at the wheel and driving those kids off a cliff to their deaths, this is just god's mysterious ways?
My Comments
Same spurious, made up, irrational and illogical argument as above. So my answer to you is the same as above.
Barry the Atheist
If you dare answer that certain scenarios might justify the unbeliever to devote zero thoughts to "god", you open a Pandora's Box that you'll never close, and we'd have to wonder how many other situations would justify us to neglect thinking about god...and you might get a nasty surprise: the normal busy unbelieving mom or dad cannot justly be called "unreasonable" for most of the times that they refuse to consider "god". Only fools would accuse an atheist mother of sinning if she purchased food for her toddler at the store and didn't think about god during the entire act.
My Comments
Actually, only fools would make such arguments such as that you just made. But, once again, you are self-defeated. You stated: "...the normal busy unbelieving mom or dad cannot justly be called 'unreasonable' for most of the times that they refuse to consider 'god'." "Most" of the times? You are indirectly admitting that there are indeed "some" of the times when the "normal busy mom or dad" could justly be called "unreasonable" for not considering God. Again, thank you for agreeing with me.
Barry the Atheist
Secondly, the catholic church has not dogmatically defined what minimal level of brain cells an unbeliever must use and when, in order for their consideration of "god" to be minimally "reasonable". So it's likely that whatever answer you give me here will not carry the authority of the RC church, but will be only your speculation.
My Comments
You are really stretching here, Barry the Atheist. You have stepped over the border from the ridiculous to the absurd. Again, though, the argument was never about what is "minimally reasonable". The argument you were making, to which I responded, is that it is irrational and unreasonable for you to ever consider the question of God's existence. I demonstrated that your argument was based on false assumptions and premises. Instead of responding to my actual arguments, you have seen fit to erect straw man arguments and put them in place of my actual arguments. One need not wonder why you had to do that.
Barry the Atheist
So unless you can show that the unbeliever of today is always unreasonable to neglect thinking about "god" in all possible circumstances in which they are conscious, you are going to lose this debate by opening doors of possibility that you won't be able to close.
My Comments
Again, the argument was never about the unbeliever being unreasonable if they "neglect thinking" about God in "all possible circumstances". Rather, the argument was, whether or not it was unreasonable or irrational for the unbeliever to ever, in any circumstance, think about the existence of God. You say it is. I say it is not. As I have already stated, you had to change the argument because your original argument was shown to be without any merit, whatsoever. So, instead of trying to counter my arguments, you simpy made up new arguments and placed them at the tips of my typing fingers. Well done, Barry the Atheist. Well done.
I will close with what I said last time: "So, do not speak to me of the rationality of not seeking gospel 'truth,' when, in fact, it is the height of irrationality not to do so. If you are comfortable in your spiritual darkness, then do not try to wrap your complacency in the cloak of rationality. Do not try to justify your fear of discovering that which you do not want to exist by pretending your inaction is the model of sanity. Simply admit that you are uncomfortable with the thought of there being a God who may require of you sacrifice that you are not prepared to make. A God who may require of you to give up your personal [finite] godhead and submit your mind, heart, will, and body to the demands of the Eternal Godhead. Just admit it and go about your not-so-merry way. But, I have to think, the very fact that you are taking the time to make such arguments to me, a perfect stranger, is an indication that the heart that beats inside of you is seeking the truth that God has created it for, and you are giving your utmost to stifle it."
Closing Comments
If you have any thoughts, comments, questions, etc. about any of this, don't hesitate to ask. I hope all of you are having a great Advent Season! Please keep us in your prayers, we are keeping you and yours in ours.
Donations
The Bible Christian Society is a non-profit organization that relies solely on your support to bring the truths of the Catholic Faith to tens of thousands of people throughout the U.S. and all around the world each year. If you would like to help us do what we do, you can donate online at:
https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/donations
or send a check to:
Bible Christian Society
PO Box 424
Pleasant Grove, AL 35127.
Anything you can do is greatly appreciated!
Unsubscribe/Subscribe
https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/unsubscribe - to unsubscribe from this newsletter
https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter - to subscribe to this newsletter
Share this newsletter on:
