Apologetics for the Masses #527 - The Beginnings of an Apologetics Conversation

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Topic

I got an email the other day - was it a troll, or a serious inquiry? Here's how it went...

General Comments

Hey folks,

I had a great time in Greenville, South Carolina this past weekend at the 13th Annual Marian Eucharistic Conference. I was one of the speakers as well as the MC - thoroughly enjoyed it. The folks there put on a really class event.

My next speaking engagement, if you happen to be out West Texas way, will be at a retreat at St. Thomas parish in Miles on December 2nd - for the men - and then at St. Joseph's in Rowena on December 3rd - which is open to everyone. I don't have information on the exact times just yet, but if you're anywhere in the vicinity and interested in attending, just call one of whose parishes and I'm sure they'll be able to give you some more information.

Introduction

Every so often...well, actually, relatively often...I'll get an email out of the blue from someone asking me questions about the Catholic Faith. Or, instead of asking me questions about the Faith, they'll simply send me an email trashing the faith. And, a number of times, they'll simply trash me for defending the faith. All in a day's work...

Anyway, the other day I received an email from a gentleman in South Africa asking questions about the Faith. The way the email was worded, I wasn't sure if this was someone who was genuinely curious and actually wanted answers to his questions, or if he was simply wanting to preach and wasn't really interested in listening.

So, I thought this would be a good example to put in a newsletter for how to go about engaging in a dialogue with someone who is questioning the Faith, especially if you're not sure where they're coming from in the beginning. I'll start with his initial email and go from there.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Email From South Africa
Do you believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, what makes you believe this?

Do you believe in prayers for the dead. What does this help? Where does purgatory come from?

Do you believe in praying to Mary, Saints, Angels? Is this not scorned upon by Paul in Colossians and is praying to the dead not coming ever so close to the same disaster of Saul speaking to Samuel after death.

Do you believe that works are necessary for salvation and not a response after salvation?

I have serious misgivings about the Catholic teachings and worry that the Catholic church is setting itself up against the Lord and not for the Lord.

I say this all earnestly not seeking my own but seeking only for the Lord.

May the Lord bless you.

My Response
So, are you actually interested in hearing a response to the questions you've posed here, which are obviously based on a lot of misinformation, or what?

Quick answers to your questions:

1) Yes; the Word of God makes me believe it.

2) Yes; the dead in Purgatory; the Word of God.

3) Yes, if by "praying to them" you mean asking for their prayers; No, it is not scorned upon by Paul, nor is it similar to the Saul/Samuel episode.

4) No, I do not.

Would be happy to expound on those answers, if you're actually interested in seeking the truth.

In Christ,

John

Comments/Strategy
Okay, 1st thing is to determine if this is a serious inquiry, or if this person is just trying to rip into the Faith, so I simply asked him. I was thinking it was a serious inquiry because his email address had a first name in it, and when I did a search on his email address, the domain was that of a legitimate company. Plus, the last line of his email suggests it is an honest inquiry. However, the manner in which he asked his questions, suggested to me that he may just be trolling me. But, I usually give the benefit of the doubt first time around, until they prove they don't deserve it. So, again, I just asked him directly. Don't make assumptions...instead, ask questions.

But, whether it is an honest inquiry or not, I went ahead and answered his questions; although, I didn't spend a lot of time in doing so, just in case it is a troll situation. If he is genuinely seeking answers, then he'll ask me to expand on what I say. But, I want to always answer the questions so that if they don't answer mine, I can always say, "Well I answered your questions, directly and concisely, why can't you answer mine in the same way?"

So, here are his questions with my direct answers following each:

1) Do you believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, what makes you believe this? A: Yes; the Word of God makes me believe it.

2) Do you believe in prayers for the dead? What does this help? Where does purgatory come from?  A: Yes; the dead in Purgatory; the Word of God.

3) Do you believe in praying to Mary, Saints, Angels? Is this not scorned upon by Paul in Colossians and is praying to the dead not coming ever so close to the same disaster of Saul speaking to Samuel after death. A: Yes, if by "praying to them" you mean asking for their prayers; No, it is not scorned upon by Paul, nor is it similar to the Saul/Samuel episode.

4) Do you believe that works are necessary for salvation and not a response after salvation? A: No, I do not.

Again, I didn't go into a lot of depth and explanation with my initial answers. And neither do you have to do so when you are confronted with questions about the faith. I have come across any number of Catholics who would, right out of the gate, give a 2 or 3 page explanation to answer each one of these questions. Not necessary to do so! In fact, giving long explanations to questions like these will tend to just bog down the conversation and keep you from getting anywhere with it. Just answer the questions as asked, and let them ask any follow up questions they may have before you go into more detail. By doing so, you'll see if they are actually curious in regard to the answers or, again, if they're just trying to preach and aren't interested in listening. Then...if they ask follow up questions...then you know they are serious and that it just might be worth spending a little more time with them.

Also, note that when I say "the Word of God" in my answers to questions #1 and #2, I am talking about both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, both of which are the Word of God (1 Thess 2:13; 2 Thess 2:15), even if the other person might assume that I'm just referring to Sacred Scripture. I phrase it that way to avoid going off on a tangent about Sacred Tradition. If the other person wants to interpret "the Word of God" as applying to Scripture alone, that's no big issue at this point.

Final point to make here, is that this person - if he's not simply a troll - seems to be a Catholic who is 9/10 of the way out the door. He might be a Protestant, but I would lay odds he's a Catholic desperately looking for a reason to stay Catholic. If that's the case, hopefully, I can give him sufficient reason to stay, and to deepen his faith.

From South Africa
Hi John,

Yes explain to me as this is of personal concern to me I am NOT a troll. It seems that many Reformed theologians seem to have a problem with these and other teachings of the Roman Catholic Church/New Apostolic Church etc.

If you could expound as to how you come to these teachings on the word of God that would be best. While I understand tradition if we could leave tradition alone for now that would be most helpful.

Also so I do not get your response to me wrong can you reply with my actual questions to your response as I do not have these as your online form does not send those back to me.

God Bless

My Response
Dear Sir,

I would be happy to expound on my answers to your questions regarding the teachings of the Catholic Church. And, I will be happy to restrict myself to Sacred Scripture when doing so. Again, here are your questions, with my answers following:

1) Do you believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, what makes you believe this? A: Yes, I believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. What makes me believe this? The Word of God. First of all, in Ezekiel, chapter 44, verses 1-2, we read the following: "Then he [the man of bronze from Ezek 40:3] brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary which faces eat; and it was shut. And he said to me, 'This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut." We see in Ezek 43:4 that the "glory of the Lord" had entered the Temple by the gate facing east. Now, in 44:1-2, we are told that no one else can enter by that gate because the Lord, the God of Israel, had entered by that gate. In other words, no human being was worthy of entering through the gate that the Lord had entered by.

So, if the gate to the Temple was permanently shut because the Lord had entered by it, then how is it that one can believe Mary had other children? How can one believe that after the Lord, the God of Israel, had entered into the world through the gate of Mary's womb, that any mere human being would be worthy of doing so? Who is worthy to enter by the gate the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by? No one! So if no one is worthy to enter through a gate of wood or stone after the Lord God has done so, how much moreso would that be true of entering through a gate made of human flesh? Of entering through the gate that the glory of the Lord - Jesus Christ - entered through?

Secondly, in Christian moral teaching, what is the proper relationship between two persons who have a child between them? Marriage, right? To have a child outside of marriage is not in line with moral teaching. Which means, what was the relationship between the two persons who had the child Jesus between them? Marriage, right? The Holy Spirit is the spouse of Mary. That is the necessary relationship between Mary and the Holy Spirit for Him to have "overshadowed" her and to have caused Jesus to be conceived within her by the power of God. So, Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit. What is it called when you have physical relations with a person other than your spouse? Adultery! So, if Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit, then how could she have had physical relations with Joseph? For anyone to claim that Mary and Joseph had physical relations is to claim that Mary, in essence, committed adultery.

2) Do you believe in prayers for the dead? What does this help? Where does purgatory come from?  A: Yes I believe in prayers for the dead. In the Word of God, we see this very clearly in 2 Maccabees 12:44-45, "For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was lookig to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."

There is no direct mention of Purgatory in Scripture; however, we see scriptural principles that point directly to Purgatory. For example, in 2 Sam 12:13-18, the story of David and the prophet Nathan, we see a Purgatorian principle - the possibility of punishment due to sin, even after the sin has been forgiven. Furthermore, Rev 21:27, nothing unclean - i.e., nothing with the stain of sin - will enter Heaven. So, if a person dies today and they are not yet perfected, they still commit sins even though they are "saved", then they need to be purged of that stain of sin before they enter Heaven. So, they die with the stain of sin, then they enter Heaven without the stain of sin. Something had to have happened to "purge" that stain of sin from them after they died. Then we see from 1 Cor 3:13-15 that there is a place one can go after you die, where your works will be tested "as through fire". And, you can suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved. Is that Hell? Nope. You don't get saved once you enter Hell. Is it Heaven? Nope. You don't suffer loss as through fire in Heaven. So, there must be another place, other than Heaven or Hell, where your works are tested as through fire. Finally, we see in Heb 12:22-23, that in Heaven there are "spirits" of the just that have been "made perfect". Which implies there is some process by which the spirits of the just - the souls of those who die in a state of grace - have been made perfect.

Put all of those scriptural principles together: 1) There is the possibility of punishment due to sin even after the sin has been forgiven; 2) Nothing with the stain of sin will enter Heaven; 3) There is a place other than Heaven or Hell, where one can go and suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved; and 4) There is some process by which the souls of the just are made perfect. You call that whatever you want, we Catholics call that Purgatory. And our prayers help the members of the Body of Christ in Purgatory, in generally the same manner that our prayers help the members of the Body of Christ here on earth. If we can pray for the latter, why can't we pray for the former?

3) Do you believe in praying to Mary, Saints, Angels? Is this not scorned upon by Paul in Colossians and is praying to the dead not coming ever so close to the same disaster of Saul speaking to Samuel after death. A: Yes, if by "praying to them" you mean asking for their prayers. What does the prayer of the Hail Mary say? "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners." We do not pray to Mary or to the other saints or angels as if they, by their power and authority alone, can hear and grant our prayers. Are not Mary and the saints members of the Body of Christ in Heaven? How is it that any member of the body is able to do anything? Only by the consent, power, and authority of the Head - Jesus Christ. If I can ask for prayers from members of the Body of Christ here on earth, why can I not ask for prayers from members of the Body of Christ in Heaven?

No, it is not scorned upon by Paul. To which particular passage of Colossians are you referring? And, no it is not similar to the Saul/Samuel episode. Asking a member of the Body of Christ in Heaven to pray for you, is not the same as delving into witchcraft and divination and the use of mediums. Saul called up the soul of Samuel through the use of a medium. When we ask the prayers of those in Heaven, we are not trying to call them up through the use of a medium. We use no "medium" other than Jesus Christ Himself, as the Head of the Body. Again, they cannot hear our requests or pray for us except by the power and authority of Jesus Christ.

In Revelation 5:8, we see the 24 elders around the throne of God holding bowls of incense, "which are the prayers of the saints". This is referring to the "saints" on earth. It seems the elders are bringing the prayers of the saints on earth before the throne of God, does it not? Also, in Rev 8:3-4, what does it say? "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." So, not only do the saints in Heaven bring the prayers of the saints on earth before the throne of God, but so, too, do the angels in Heaven. I'll bet the "Reformed theologians" don't have much of a rational explanation for that.

4) Do you believe that works are necessary for salvation and not a response after salvation? A: The dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church is that neither our faith or our works save us. We are saved solely by the grace of God, period! However, once we have been saved by the grace God has freely given us through Baptism, then God expects us to do something with what he has given us. He expects a response of faith and works. And, if we do not give him a response of faith and works, then we can lose what we have been given. So, our works do not save us; however, we need to do the works that God has prepared for us beforehand (Eph 2:10) to retain the gift we have been given. If we don't, we could lose our salvation. Did not the Prodigal Son lose - through sin - the inheritance his father gave him? Do not the goats in Matthew 25 get tossed into the outer darkness because they did not do the works - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. - that God put before them to do? Does Rom 2:6-7 not say that God will render unto every man according to his works? To those that do good works, He will give "eternal life"?

Look at the 3 servants in Matt 25:14-30. The "master" gave all three of them some talents. The first two made a return on what the master had freely given them. The result? They entered into the "joy of their master". The third servant did nothing with what had been freely given to him. He is the Sola Fide - the faith alone - servant. He freely received from the master, and did absolutely nothing with what he was given. So, did he enter into the joy of his master? No! He was tossed into the outer darkness. Does not Matt 7:21 say that only those who "do" the will of the Father will be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven? Is "doing" the will of the Father an act of faith, or an act of works? Both! You need both faith and works to be saved, but all by the grace of God. And if you don't "do" the will of the Father, do you still enter the Kingdom? Nope.

By the way, where exactly does the Bible say that after someone is saved they will automatically do good works? Can you quote book, chapter, and verse for me? If you look at Jesus' words to the 7 churches in Rev 2 and 3, it is very clear that a number of those "saved" folks in some of those churches, started off doing good works, but then, after a while, stopped doing them. So, whoever says that just because someone is saved they will automatically do good works, doesn't have a scriptural leg to stand on.

Comments/Strategy
Now, after he has shown a willingness to hear what I have to say in response to his questions, now I will spend a little bit of time answering them. Although, again, please note that I did not just slam him with dozens and dozens of Scripture verses, nor did I quote from any Church Fathers or Church Councils, nor did I try to cover every single objection that Protestants make in regard to each of these topics. I gave him enough to show that Scripture does indeed support Catholic teaching in these areas. If he has follow up questions/arguments, I'll let him make them and then I'll address them at that time.

Also, please note that I did something that I very rarely do - I used a passage from one of the 7 books of the Old Testament (2 Maccabees) that Protestants do not consider to be Scripture. Normally, I avoid using anything from any of those books since Protestants do not consider them to be inspired and authoritative. However, in this instance, I'm talking to someone that I believe to be Catholic. If not, he'll let me know by his response to this particular citation of Scripture. But, if he objects to it by saying Maccabees is not Scripture, then that will give me an opening to go straight to the question of authority. Who has the authority to decide which books are, or are not, the inspired Word of God? And, as most of you know, I always say the question of authority is the question you want to get to - it is the fundamental question in all differences between Protestant and Catholic.

Also, I didn't ask him a lot of questions like I normally do because he is not being antagonistic. He is not defending some other faith tradition, he is simply wanting explanation about why Catholics believe as we do. Now, I fully expect him to start in with arguments for Calvinist teaching (since he seems to be getting his talking points from "Reformed theologians"). So, if he takes what I said to whoever is filling his head with the anti-Catholic stuff, then he will come back with counter-arguments for that particular theology, as well as more arguments against Catholic teaching.

Closing Comments

That's where things stand as of today. I just sent him that last email a little before sending out this newsletter. So, I imagine I'll be getting a response from him, with more questions and with some counter-arguments to what I've stated above. If I do, that will be in the next newsletter.

I hope all of you have a great week!

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