Apologetics for the Masses #440 - A Facebook Conversation with a Protestant, Part 3

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A Fairly Typical (More or Less) Facebook Conversation with a Protestant, Part 3

General Comments

Hey folks,

I have a prayer request for you. My son, Noah, is taking the ACT tomorrow morning (Saturday, Feb. 11th). Could you please say a prayer (or two, or three) that he make at least a 30 on this test? He has the intellectual capacity to do it, and he's made 30 and above on individual parts of the test in practice, but I think he kinda gets bored sitting in the room taking the test for 4 hours straight and tends to loose his concentration. So, if you could pray for him to stay focused and motivated, and to get that 30, I would greatly appreciate it!

The difference in scholarship money between a 29 and a 30, with his high school GPA, is around $40,000 over 4 years. So, needless to say, it would be HUGE for him to get that 30.

Thank you!

Introduction

Okay, I'm going to, and not going to, continue the dialogue with Marie that I've had going on in the last two newsletters. After the point of the dialogue where I left off last week, she just kept harping on the definitions of "true" and "authentic" and a couple of other things that were just ridiculous, not to mention rather difficult to follow. So, I'm going to pick out a couple of the salient points of the remaining dialogue between us - one part where she actually answers a question - and comment on those points.

Then, I'm going to switch to some of the dialogue with one of her compadres that I had on my Bible Christian Society Facebook page and demonstrate to what lengths folks like that will go to deny that a Catholic could possibly be right on anything when it comes to the Bible. It continually amazes me...

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Marie Taylor

     My final answer to your first question is posted again below. Where can I read your publishing of my answer? I'm looking forward to evangelizing your followers. Please let me know.
     Question #1 from John Martignoni: Can you show that the Apostles taught that all authentically (i.e. true) Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture? If, yes, please provide book, chapter, and verse.
     Answer #1 from Marie Taylor: No, nor is that necessary for Sola Scriptura; per Jesus, the two requirements for "true Christian beliefs" are 1) they originated from an apostle (John 15:20; 17:8) and 2) they do not contradict Scripture (Matt. 15:1-9). The premise of your question supports this as well by asking if the APOSTLES taught this, which necessitates that the beliefs came from the apostles. God the Holy Spirit offered further clarification through the pen of the apostle Paul by saying that we are not to believe even an apostle if they ever teach anything other than the original deposit (Gal. 1:8-9). So if we are not even to believe an apostle who teaches contrary to the original deposit, we certainly are not to believe men centuries later who teach contrary to the original deposit, even those falsely claiming to be successors to the apostles (you cannot have apostolic succession without apostolic teaching). Finally, any issue that is not apostolic, as long as it does not contradict Scripture, falls into the category of those which “each person must be fully convinced in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5). And with this answer, we see that the doctrine of Sola Scripture is a biblical and apostolic teaching and principle.

My Comments

Yay! She finally answered a direct question with a direct answer! "No," she said, she cannot show "that all authentically (i.e. true) Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture". And then she proceeds to explain her answer. If she would have done that with every question I asked, as I did with the questions she asked, then we could have had a rational, and maybe even productive, conversation. As it is, though, it took me several rounds of dialogue to get her to the point of answering one...JUST ONE...question. Folks, that ain't worth your time should you run across people like this. And I know you do run across people like this because I hear from you guys all the time about your conversations with Protestants. Generally, my rule is to ask a question three times. If it doesn't get answered after three times asked, then just say, "Thanks, but if you are either unable, or unwilling, to respond directly to my questions, then there is no point in continuing this conversation."

Now, a little analysis on her answer. I never responded back on this because, again, the conversation basically went off into the weeds and there was no point to continue. However, if I had responded to her, I would have asked some questions based on these observations:

1) "Per Jesus," there are "two requirements" for "true Christian beliefs"? Really?! Always remember, when someone cites a Scripture verse to back up something they say, go and read the verse, or verses, they cite. 100% of the time - I guarantee you - 100% of the time, if they are using those verses to "prove" the Catholic Church is wrong, then those verses either do not say what they are trying to make them say, or they are taking the verses out of context. For example, does either John 15:20 or 17:8 say anything...at all!...about "two requirements" for "true Christian beliefs"? No, they don't. John 15:20 says, "If they [the world] kept My word they will keep yours also..." (Jesus talking to the Apostles). John 17:8 says, "...for I have given them [the Apostles] the words which Thou [the Father] gavest Me and they have received them..."

Uhmm...how does either of those verses back up #1 of her requirements for "true Christian beliefs" which says they must "originate" with an Apostle? They don't! First of all, all "true Christian beliefs" originate with God, according to both John 15:20 and 17:8, and according to the Catholic Church. Marie's "apostolic origin" requirement for true Christian beliefs, guess what? It eliminates all of God's Word and all of His teachings from the Old Testament. Not a single Old Testament book originated with the Apostles. Ten Commandments...did not originate with the Apostles. Old Testament prophecy...not a single one originated with the Apostles. Teaching on Original Sin...did not originate with the Apostles. Teaching on the existence of God, teaching on Heaven and Hell, on angels and Satan and demons...did not originate with the Apostles.

Furthermore, John 17:8 says, according to how Marie interprets it, that Jesus has already given "the words" - the true Christian beliefs - to the Apostles which they will pass on to everyone. So, that kinda eliminates the writings of Paul, doesn't it? I mean, Paul wasn't an original disciple of Jesus. He didn't hear His teachings when He was walking the earth. Nor was he there at the Last Supper. Paul wasn't around at any of the times when Jesus gave "the words" - the true Christian beliefs - to the Apostles for them to pass on. Do you see how people can get into trouble when they lean upon their own understanding for doctrine and dogma, and do not submit to guidance from the Church?

2) But, she goes on to say, "God the Holy Spirit offered further clarification through the pen of the apostle Paul by saying that we are not to believe even an apostle if they ever teach anything other than the original deposit (Gal. 1:8-9)." Read that statement over a couple of times and see if you can recognize the major problem inherent in it.

Here's the thing: First she says all "true Christian beliefs" have to have originated with an apostle. Then she says, don't believe even an apostle if they teach anything "other than the original deposit". Which means, they shouldn't believe anything Paul says because he wasn't at the Last Supper and he wasn't a disciple of Jesus which would have allowed him to receive the "original deposit"...he wasn't there to receive "the words" which the Father gave to Jesus and which Jesus passed on to the original apostles. And, how exactly is it that we, 2000 years later, are to know what the "original deposit" is? Who decides what is original or not? An apostle? Well, Marie just told us that we're not to believe even an apostle if they teach us something other than the original deposit. Which means, according to Marie's logic, there must be some way to know what the original deposit is outside of the teaching of even any individual apostle. How do we do that?

3) Marie states, "Finally, any issue that is not apostolic, as long as it does not contradict Scripture, falls into the category of those which “each person must be fully convinced in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5)." My question to her would be: Who gets to decide what is or is not apostolic teaching and what does or does not contradict the Bible? What if I think, for example, that contraception contradicts the Bible (see Genesis 38 and the story of Onan) but Marie, obviously, doesn't think contraception contradicts the Bible...who decides which one of us is correct? What if I believe Jesus is speaking literally in John 6:51-58 and Marie believes he's speaking symbolically? Who decides which one of us is correct? What if I believe Jesus gave the Apostles the authority on earth to forgive sins (Matt 9:6-8; John 20:21-23; James 5:16) and Marie doesn't. Which one of us is contradicting Scripture and which one isn't? Who decides?

It all comes down to the problem of authority. If each individual reader of Scripture has the authority to read Scripture on their own to decide for themselves what is or is not authentic (sorry, Marie) Christian doctrine and dogma, then how can Marie ever tell any Catholic they are wrong? She can't. All she can do is say she "believes" they are wrong...in her private, fallible, non-authoritative opinion. But, she has no authority, whatsoever, to tell them they are definitively wrong. Oh, yes...I know...Marie is one of "The Elect," so that makes her right. But how do I know she is what she claims to be? Is her name in the Bible? If I "test her spirit" as the Bible tells me to do, what proof can she offer that she is a member of "The Elect"? Absolutely none.

4) Finally, on this particular part of the dialogue, Marie's claims about the apostles kinda sorta argues for the gift of infallibility, don't you think? I mean, if all "true Christian beliefs" originated with an apostle, wouldn't that mean that the apostle has to be infallible in his teaching? Because, if he's not, then it's possible that apostolic teaching contains error. Right, Marie?

Marie Taylor
John S. Martignoni while I formulate my answer to your second question, I have a question on the table for you. Surely you will agree to answer questions, too, since you are a "chief apologist", and all:

Q1. How can your religion be the "one true church" when her laity cannot agree on that which God calls "of first importance" (I Cor. 15:1-4), the message of salvation (Rom. 1:16)? Shouldn't those in the "one true church" know the message by which they were called (II Thess. 2:14) and saved (Eph. 1:13)?

My Comments
What Marie is trying to do here, is define a dogma for the Catholic Church. Don't ever let anyone like her try to define the Catholic religion for you. Basically, what she's saying is, that since some Catholics she has asked have not given her the exact same answer to her test question on the "message of salvation," then that means the Catholic Church can't be the Church founded by Jesus. So, since the Catholic Church does not have a dogma that states: "THE one and only message of salvation is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4," and since all Catholics do not know this non-existent dogma, then, according to Marie, the Catholic Church cannot be the true church.

I told her this: "You do not get to define dogma for the Catholic Church. You are not the Pope, you are not a Church Council, and you are most definitely not God. So, your attempt to declare a "Message of Salvation" dogma for Catholics borders on the absurd. Well, no, it doesn't 'border' on the absurd, it actually crosses deep into the territory of the absurd." That, however, demonstrates the lengths to which some anti-Catholics will go to make themselves feel good about believing their own particular brand of Christianity which is based on their fallible interpretations of Scripture. They make up these dogmatic "tests" for Catholics and then if the Catholics do not give the right answers to their tests, that "proves," in their minds, that Catholics are not saved and that the Catholic Church is a false church.

What Marie Taylor and her ilk fail to realize, is that whether or not a Catholic can give the "correct" answer to their salvation quiz, in no way, shape, or form determines whether that Catholic is saved or not or whether the Catholic Church is the true church or not. For Catholics, all of the Word of God is the message of salvation - "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God," (Matthew 4:4). And, for Catholics, underlying all of God's Word, underlying everything we do and believe as Catholics, is the fact that we know He sent His only Son to die on the Cross for our sins. We confess this every Sunday in the Creed we recite at Mass. So whether or not we can give the "correct" Scripture verses to answer the salvation quiz from folks like Marie, is absolutely irrelevant to anything that matters. And, sometimes, even if you give the "correct" answer to the quiz - as I did with Marie - they might just lie to you and tell you that you didn't give them the right answer. Or, they may peer into your soul and tell you that, even though you did give the right answer to the quiz, they know that you don't believe that answer so you're still doomed to Hell.

Now, onto one of the conversations on the Bible Christian Society Facebook page with Ed Roper, who is one of "The Elect" along with Marie Taylor. I'm not going to make any comments until the end as it's pretty obvious what's going on here. To preface what I have below, I had asked Ed, "How did Jesus answer the question from the rich young man in Matthew 19, when He was asked: 'Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?'" Here's his response:

Ed Roper
Christ Showed us that NO MAN/woman can possibly keep the 10 commandments.

John Martignoni
Yes, Ed, "NO MAN/woman can possibly keep the 10 commandments," in and of their own power. But, does Scripture say that all things are possible with God, or not?

Ed Roper
Sure Does. Now tell us WHO KEPT THE COMMANDMENTS PERFECTLY!?

John Martignoni
Didn't John the Baptist? After all, he was filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb. What about John the Baptist's parents? Scripture says they kept "ALL" the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly! So, the Bible says that Elizabeth and Zechariah kept all of the Lord's commandments blamelessly. Do you agree with the Bible or not?

Ed Roper
What scripture says I BELIEVE. What you say they Say, I DONT BELIEVE!

John Martignoni
Do you deny that, with the grace of God, someone could indeed keep the Commandments perfectly? Do you deny that all things are possible with God?

Ed Roper
Yes I do! Because The WHOLE PURPOSE FOR CHRIST was to Show man that NO flesh could keep The Commandments Perfectly. God Didnt even have to say so!

John Martignoni
You deny that all things are possible with God even though the Bible says, "All things are possible with God." Yet, you claim that your opinions are in line with the Word of God? You live in Wonderland, Eddie..."Off with his head!"

Ed, does the Word of God say that Elizabeth and Zechariah walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly...yes or no?

Ed Roper
Who Cares!!?! They Have No Influence on My Eternal Salvation. NOW LETS SEE HOW WELL YOU KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS!

My Comments

Do you see how easy it is to throw a monkey wrench, or maybe it would be better to say a biblical wrench, into Protestant theology? Ask anyone who believes in Sola Fide - salvation by faith alone - that question about the rich young man: "How did Jesus answer the question from the rich young man in Matthew 19, when He was asked: 'Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?'" (verse 16). And you will rarely, if ever, have them respond as Jesus responded: "If you would enter life, keep the Commandments," (verse 17). Why? Because keeping the Commandments is a series of WORKS. And works have nothing to do with us entering eternal life, at least, acccording to Protesstant theology.

What you will get in response to your question will be a lot like how Ed Roper responded to my question. First they will evade it: "Christ Showed us that NO MAN/woman can possibly keep the 10 commandments." That's not what I asked about. I asked, "How did Jesus answer the question?" All he has to do is quote Scripture, but he can't do it. Why? Because Jesus' answer flies in the face of his theological system. So he evades the question.

Next, I ask the setup question: Doesn't Scripture say all things possible with God? He answers that question, because the scriptural answer doesn't contradict his theology. Then he asks me a question: "WHO KEPT THE COMMANDMENTS PERFECTLY!?" That's when I throw him a loop by showing him that the Bible says Elizabeth and Zechariah kept all of the commandments and ordinances of the Lord "blamelessly". And then ask him: "Do you agree with the Bible or not?" He ironically responds with what I always teach Catholics to say, "What scripture says I BELIEVE. What you say they Say, I DONT BELIEVE!" Or, I believe what the Bible says, however, I don't necessarily believe your fallible interpretation of the Bible. But, here's the thing - I didn't interpret the Bible. I just gave it to him directly as quoted in the Bible and then said, "Do you agree with the Bible or not?" He knew, from the very clear words of the Bible, what those words mean. And that's what he was actually subconsciously objecting to.

Then we get to the amazing point where one of "The Elect" contradicts what he had just said moments earlier and actually denies the Word of God: "Do you deny that, with the grace of God, someone could indeed keep the Commandments perfectly? Do you deny that all things are possible with God?" His response: Yes I do!

Folks, it is just that easy to confound the false teachings of a theological system that is based on the private, fallible interpretations of Scripture that people come up with. Ed Roper denied the Word of God! He denied the power of God's grace! Why? Just to keep from admitting that this Catholic guy could be right on anything when it comes to Scripture. That's how far some anti-Catholics will go to deny any single point of Catholic teaching.

Then, after realizing that his position was completely indefensible...that it was shown to be completely inconsistent with Scripture...what did he do? He punts: "Who Cares!!?! They Have No Influence on My Eternal Salvation. NOW LETS SEE HOW WELL YOU KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS!" Hopefully, although I doubt it, but hopefully he will have occasion to ponder that conversation and his answers, or lack thereof, and maybe a seed of truth will be planted. We can pray...

That's it for this week. Next issue, I will close out this whole episode with Marie and her cohorts in "The Elect" by giving some more questions that I asked of them on the Bible Christian Society Facebook page, similar to the ones above that I asked of Ed, and give you their actual responses. You will again see how easy it is to poke huge holes in Protestant theology and you will be able to take those questions and use them directly with pretty much any Protestant you come across who is questioning/attacking the Catholic Faith, and maybe plant a seed or two.

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a great week! And, please, do say a prayer for my son regarding the ACT test. I would be exceedingly grateful...thanks!

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