Apologetics for the Masses #416 - GotQuestions.org and John 6:51 (cont'd)

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Topic

The Protestant website - GotQuestions.org - and John 6:51 (Part 3)

General Comments

Hey folks,

I've had a number of you ask me over the past few years about my opinion of Pope Francis. I've never really responded because I didn't want to get into all of that. Well, with a bunch of talk out there on the internet these days that Francis isn't really the Pope - either we have no Pope at all or that Pope Benedict is still Pope - I thought I would throw in my two cents worth. So, in the next newsletter (which will not be next week since I'm having another eye surgery and also traveling to give a talk next week), I am going to give you my opinion regarding Francis as Pope and such through the prism of the arguments that Patrick Coffin presents in a video he put out titled: Seven Pieces of Evidence That Francis is an Antipope.

All I will say here is that I appreciate the way Patrick has approached the topic - he wants to present the evidence and let each person decide for themselves. Fair enough. So, I will look at those seven pieces of evidence he presents, comment on each of them, and then give you my conclusions regarding that evidence, and about Francis, in general. Hopefully it will prove to be of value to you. But, again, that will be in the next newsletter in a couple of weeks or so.

Introduction

For this week, I am continuing the Q&A with GotQuestions.org that I've been focused on in the last couple of newsletters. Apparently, GotQuestions.org is a very popular Protestant website for getting answers to theological questions. So, I asked them a theological question. The question I've been trying to get a straightforward answer to is, essentially: In John 6:51, Jesus is talking about giving us this bread to eat, and the bread that He says He is going to give us to eat is His flesh which He will give for the life of the world. So, was the flesh which He gave for the life of the world, which was on the Cross...real...or symbolic?

If it's real, then Jesus is talking about giving us His real flesh to eat in John 6:52-58. If it's symbolic, then Jesus didn't really die on the Cross, it was only a symbolic representation of His flesh and blood. Either way a Protestant answers that question, they have a problem.

So far, the person answering the questions for GotQuestions.org first said John 6:51 was talking symbolically, then in his second answer he said it was Jesus' real flesh being talked about. So, I'm going to try to flesh that out here (pun intended) with yet another question.

Below is the last question I asked, followed by their latest answer, and then my next question.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

My Question

Thank you so much for that last answer! I hope you don't mind, but if I could maybe be a little bit like Abraham with the Lord when he was trying to negotiate for the folks in Sodom - I still need a little more help. I shared your answers with some Catholic friends, and they're saying that there is a contradiction in the answers. That your first answer states that John 6:51 was speaking metaphorically about Jesus' flesh being "spiritual" bread, but in the second answer you specifically state that John 6:51 is speaking of the flesh that Jesus gave on the cross for the sins of the world - which they assume you believe was real, not metaphorical.

So John 6:51 is metaphorical flesh in one answer, real flesh in the next answer. Here's the question one of my Catholic friends posed to me: "In John 6:51, Jesus says the bread that He is going to give us to eat is the flesh that He will give for the life of the world. We are all agreed that He gave His flesh for the life of the world on the cross. So, was His flesh on the cross real or metaphorical?" If you could help me respond to him I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

Answer from GotQuestions.org

Hello, and thanks for writing back! I am praying that your friends are receptive as you continue dialoguing with them! Here's your question..."In John 6:51, Jesus says the bread that He is going to give us to eat is the flesh that He will give for the life of the world. We are all agreed that He gave His flesh for the life of the world on the cross. So, was His flesh on the cross real or metaphorical?" If you could help me respond to him I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

Even in John 6:51, He is not saying that He is literally bread. He is using the bread as a picture of a spiritual truth. Yes, He is saying that He is the bread of life. He does not literally mean that He is a loaf of bread. Previously, we see that Jesus takes a physical reality (they had just eaten) and turns it into a spiritual truth:

"Jesus answered, 'Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval'” (John 6:26-27).

In neither John 6 nor at the Last Supper is Jesus literally saying He is a bread and that by eating this bread you have life. Rather, the "food" we eat spiritually (our trust in Jesus' death and resurrection for salvation) is what leads to eternal life.

The issue, I believe, is their belief in transubstantiation. Transubstantiation did not even become an official doctrine of the Catholic church until the fourth Lateran council of 1215. It came from Aquinas' interpretation of Aristotelian philosophy, not an interpretation of Scripture itself. The Scriptures declare that the Lord’s Supper is a memorial to the body and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25), not the actual consumption of His physical body and blood. When Jesus was speaking in John chapter 6, Jesus had not yet had the Last Supper with His disciples, in which He instituted the Lord’s Supper. To read the Lord’s Supper / Christian Communion back into John chapter 6 is unwarranted. It's not even necessary because if we look at each passage in context, we see He is teaching a symbolic truth, not a literal one. For a more complete discussion of these issues, please read our article on the Holy Eucharist.

God's Word says that Jesus died "once for all" and does not need to be sacrificed again (Hebrews 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18). Hebrews 7:27 declares, "Unlike the other high priests, He (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for all when He offered Himself." This is good news! Whereas Catholics believe He needs to continually be re-sacrificed and that we receive grace by partaking of this sacrament, Jesus has already completed the work. We just remember, reflect, and respond to this grace we have already received when we take communion together.

Comments

Aarrgghh! It's symbolic. No, it's real. No, it's symbolic. Why is it so difficult for someone to give a direct answer to a direct question?! "Was His flesh on the cross real, or symbolic?" Why does that question result in a six paragraph "answer" that nowhere actually addresses the question? It should be a one word answer. Do you see, folks, how this question about John 6:51 ties Protestant theology, and thus Protestants, up in knots? And why does he have to tell me that Jesus is not literally saying He is a "loaf of bread"? So much for what he thinks of a Catholic's level of intelligence. Oh my...

So, I tried the indirect route to get an answer to the question, and I tried a more direct route to get an answer to the question. Neither one really worked, at least, not directly. But, indirectly it worked in the sense that he contradicted himself. Do you see the value in getting the other guy to talk more than you talk? By getting this guy at GotQuestions.org to keep talking, he has contradicted himself not once, but twice now. The more the other folks talk, the more it gives you the opportunity to point out the inconsistencies and contradictions that are inherent in their theology.

So many times when folks send me their email conversations with Protestants and ask for my opinion on them, the first thing I quite often see is that the Catholic is writing paragraph after paragraph after paragraph compared to the Protestant simply saying something along the lines of: "Oh yeah? Well what about Ephesians 2:8-9? That proves salvation is by faith alone." Or, the Catholic will have written so much that it gives the Protestant the opportunity to go down all sorts of rabbit trails and thus ignore/avoid responding directly to the main questions the Catholic is asking or responding to the arguments he is making.

So, the general rule I teach people is to talk less than the other guy. Make them explain what they believe and why and get them talking as much as possible. And then look for the inconsistencies and contradictions that will always pop up in their theology, or in their logic, and use what they say against them.

Okay, again, I am not going to respond to all the nonsense that this guy has put out there. No point in doing that. I am going to stay on John 6:51 until he answers my questions or he simply quits responding. So, below is my next question to this guy.

Question to GotQuestions.org

I hope you can bear with me for one more question, and I apologize if this comes across in any way as being difficult, but the Catholics I'm dealing with are saying that you are not really answering the question that I asked and that your answers so far have contradicted themselves. So, this is the question directly from a Catholic, I would appreciate your help with it:

In John 6:51, Jesus says that "I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever, and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh." Jesus is going to give us some sort of bread to eat, and no, He is not talking about becoming a loaf of bread. But, what bread is He going to give us? You say he is going to give us spiritual bread. But, He says that the bread He is going to give us to eat is His flesh. Great! Which flesh? His symbolic, metaphorical, spiritual flesh, or His real flesh?

Well, it is the flesh that He is going to give for the life of the world. So, was the flesh that He gave for the life of the world His real flesh, or was it His symbolic, metaphorical, spiritual flesh? It is agreed by all of us that He gave His flesh for the life of the world on the Cross. So, the crucial question is: Was the flesh on the Cross, which Jesus gave for the life of the world, His symbolic, metaphorical, and spiritual flesh, or was it His real flesh? If it is His real flesh that He gave on the Cross, then it is His real flesh that He gave for the life of the world, which means it is His real flesh that He is referring to as the living bread which He is going to give us to eat. So, again, was the flesh that Jesus gave on the Cross for the life of the world real, or was it merely symnbolic, metaphorical, and spiritual? Thank you!

Closing Comments

Alright, we'll see where this goes. Maybe this next time around, if they answer my question, I'll get a straight answer. I doubt it, but there is always hope.

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