Apologetics for the Masses, #395 - The Doctrinal Dance (Finale)

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Topic

An email exchange with a Protestant who does everything possible to avoid answering my questions.

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General Comments

Hey folks,

     Two things:

1) Just a reminder that my Bible/Catechism study on the Letters of Peter will start back up this Monday, April 12th.  We will be looking at 2nd Peter, chapter 1, this Monday, and then chapters 2 and 3 on the following Mondays. 

     When: Mondays - April 12, 19, and 26 - from 6:30 PM - 8:00 PM Central (11:30 PM - 1:00 AM GMT). 

     Where: St. Theresa's in Leeds, in the Parish Hall. 

     Online:  YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/user/CrimsonCatholic

                    Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/BibleChristianSociety

                    Zoom:   https://quorumvc.zoom.us/j/2053971000?pwd=TnVVSnRDMGdOR3F1WkIwQjBmb1hhZz09

2) The "Big Project" I mentioned a few weeks back will commence in the Greater Birmingham area starting April 19th.  Please say a prayer that it goes well and that many seeds will be planted.  For those of you not in Birmingham, I'll give you an update after the project starts.

Introduction

     This will be the last newsletter in my exchange with Dancer.  And, just so you know up front, this will be a bit longer than most of my recent newsletters, because a good part of it is explaining to Dancer why I asked him the questions that I have asked him. 

     And, remember, the point of all of this with "Dancer," is to simply give you an example - which is not that far out of the ordinary - for what you will experience, if you haven't already, when you engage with most Protestants vis-a-vis the Catholic Church and its teachings.  I engaged with "Dancer" far longer than I would normally advise someone to do so, but I did so because his responses were such a perfect example of so many of the tactics Protestants use when dealing with Catholics.  Plus, he was obsessively persistent in sending me dozens upon dozens of emails and then with leaving any number of messages on the Bible Christian Society voicemail. 

     When it is all said and done, will any seeds have been planted with Dancer?  I don't know.  Just like you may never know if any seeds have been planted with the folks you deal with.  But, Dancer's incessant need to bombard me with emails and phone messages tells me that the things I have said to him are really, really bothering him.  So, my guess would be that a seed has been planted.  Has it been planted in good soil, or among the rocks and the weeds?  Who knows?  That's why I always say that we just throw the seeds out there, and then pray that the Holy Spirit will help those seeds to grow and bear fruit.

     The other reason for going on with Dancer is I wanted to hammer home the point that you need not be afraid of any Protestant who questions or attacks the faith.  Dancer is obviously an exceedingly intelligent human being.  I mean, you can't be an idiot and make it through dental school.  He goes to a church that just teaches the Bible.  Yet, do you see how rather pitiful his responses are to the simplest of questions?  He has to avoid, dodge, change the subject, call me names, and attack the Church, all in an attempt to avoid answering my questions in a direct, honest, logical, and scriptural manner.  You can cause the exact same scriptural and logical problems for pretty much anyone you dialogue with - which will hopefully plant some seeds - so do not be afraid to engage with Protestants about the Church and the Bible! 

     Okay, what's going on below is this: In the last newsletter, I sprang the scriptural trap that I had set for him.  I had asked him if he was "seeking God."  He then reflexively said, "Absolutely positively 100% yesssss!"  To which I then followed up with, "The Bible says, 'No one seeks for God,' (Romans 3:11).  That's an absolute isn't it?  I mean, it says 'NO ONE!'  So, which is it?  Are you wrong or is the Bible wrong?"  Boom!  He was instantly in a position which, because of his theology, could not be defended in a logically and scripturally consistent manner.  And that's the main point here: his theology is the reason he can't answer the questions in a logically and scripturally consistent manner.  Why?  Because his theology is at odds with Scripture and reason. 

     He then sent a couple dozen emails or so, none of which answered that question, or another one I asked: "The Bible says NONE is righteous, NO NOT ONE. Yet, the Bible says lots of people are righteous. So, is the Bible contradicting itself?  If not, why not?"  Again, his theology has no answer for this line of questioning.  At least, no answer that is consistent.

     He finally sent the email that I ended the last newsletter with, where he said, "I’m not seeking God I already FOUND HIM. HA HA GOTCHA!"  I responded to that email (see last newsletter) and then he kept sending more emails that did not answer either of those two questions.  I would simply respond to his emails by repeating those two questions, or by asking him - in one way or another - "Why won't you answer those two questions?"  I did not respond to any of the other things he said or asked since he had not responded to those two questions.

     Finally, after another couple dozen or so emails from him, I issued the ultimatum I start off with below.  He then, to my surprise, attempted to answer my questions.  His answers, and my responses to them, are below.  Again, a little lengthy, but I hope you will find them worth the time.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

John M.

If you want to have an actual dialogue, then all you have to do is answer these questions which have been already asked, yet remain unanswered:

1) Did you contradict yourself by first saying you were seeking God..."100% Yesssss"...and then by saying you are not seeking God?

2) Before the Fall, Adam and Eve were sinless...did that make them equal to God?  Yes or no?

3) If a person does not do the works that God has prepared for them beforehand...are they still saved?  Yes or no?

4) In Galatians 3:1, it says that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed - before their very eyes - as being crucified.  Can you tell me how it was that Jesus was publicly "portrayed as crucified"?  Sounds like they were looking at a crucifix, doesn't it?

5) Have you ever been a drug addict?  Maybe an alcoholic?  If not, would you say that Jesus saved you from being a drug addict or an alcoholic? 

Answer those questions and then feel free to ask me any 5 questions you might have about the Catholic Faith, and I will answer them directly and succintly.  I hope you are able to do the same.  If you don't answer these questions, this conversation, such as it is, is over.

 

Dancer

Wow I have never heard some of these questions put this way. But here goes 

 

My Response

Before I end this pseudo-dialogue, I believe it only just that, since you made an attempt to answer those 5 questions I asked of you, that I respond to your answers.  I hope you read them over thoughtfully and carefully and without any predetermined bias.  I will also explain to you the questions I asked about “no one” is righteous, “no not one” is seeking God and “no one” understands, that have vexed you so.  It's a bit long because I am answering a number of your emails all in one. 

A dialogue - an interaction between two people where they respond directly to what the other person has said or asked - is what I have attempted to have with you.  I am giving you the courtesy of reading what you have written, and responding directly to it.  I am not simply throwing around Bible passages nor am I unilaterally declaring, based on my own authority, that you are simply wrong - as you have done several times.  Nor am I making up things as to what Scripture says or doesn’t say.  I have given you reasoned explanations, backed up by Scripture (Scripture interpreting Scripture), to show you why you are wrong, and why your interpretations of Scripture are flawed, and why it is so easy - given your theology - to force you into a scriptural contradiction.   

But, you have shown little capacity to have an honest and thoughtful dialogue.  I truly hope you will read my responses without your blinders of bigotry and bias towards all things Catholic and that the Holy Spirit will guide you unto right reasoning and judgment.  If you respond, respond directly to the arguments I actually make and the questions I actually ask.  That’s all I ask.  If you cannot, then you will not hear from me again.

John
1) The Bible says NO ONE - ABSOLUTELY NO ONE - is seeking God. Bryan says he is seeking God.  Who should I believe: The Word of God, or the Word of Bryan?  Which one is wrong?

2) The Bible says NONE is righteous, NO NOT ONE. Yet, the Bible says lots of people are righteous. So, is the Bible contradicting itself?  If not, why not.

Can't answer the questions and be consistent in your theology, can you?!

Dancer
The questions are obviously talking about man without God  UNBELIEVERS wicked evil man as stated in the Psalms I sent you , the Bible says God chooses man the Holy Spirit seeks us out. Then it’s man’s free will mans choice to answer the CALLING IF ALMIGHTY GOD .!!!!!!!

John
Oh, so when verse 9 says, “ALL men are under the power of sin,” and verse 10 says, “NO ONE is righteous, no, NOT ONE,” and when verse 11 says, “NO ONE understands, NO ONE seeks for God,” and when verse 12 says, “ALL have turned aside...NO ONE does good, NOT EVEN ONE” - you are saying that those passages are not talking about every single person who was ever born, right?  They are talking about unbelievers.  You are saying that “ALL,” “NO ONE,” “NOT ONE,” “NO ONE,” “ALL,” and “NOT EVEN ONE,” are not absolutes - in other words, they are not referring to every single person who was ever born, right? 

Well, if the word “ALL” in verses 9 and 12 is not referring to absolutely everyone who has ever been born, then why do you interpret “ALL” in verse 23 as referring to absolutely everyone who has ever been born?  That’s being inconsistent in your interpretation of Scripture.  But, you have to do be inconsistent here because you want so badly to use verse 23 as a proof text against Mary being sinless, right?  So, you bring your anti-Catholic belief to Scripture and twist the Word so that Scripture will say what you want it to say. 

The reason I was able to so easily cause you a problem with my questions is because of your inconsistency and because you’ve never really thought this passage through, have you? You’ve never been challenged on it, and, when you were, your inconsistency shone brightly and your half-baked theology was exposed.  I had you going bonkers over two simple questions.  That fact alone should have you seriously examining what you believe, and why you believe it.  If you say, “ALL” in verse 23 refers to everyone who has ever lived or ever will, then you have to - in order to be consistent - interpret “ALL” and “NO ONE” and “NOT ONE” as referring to everyone who has ever lived or ever will live.  That’s why I was able to cause you such angst with my questions, because of your inconsistency.

Furthermore, if you look at Romans 5, 18-19, you will see that Paul is not using “ALL” as an absolute.  He says in verse 18 that “ALL” have been condemned, but he also says that “ALL” have been acquitted and have life.  If “ALL” means absolutely everyone who has ever been born, then that means as all were condemned, so all are saved - every single person who has ever lived, or ever will live - ALL - are saved.  Do you believe in that?  Do you believe in universal salvation?  No, you don’t, because you’ve already condemned me to Hell.  But, the fact that Paul doesn’t use “ALL” as an absolute is shown very clearly in verse 19, where Paul repeats what he just said in verse 18, but with one very interesting difference...instead of using “ALL,” he uses the word “MANY.”  So, “MANY” were made sinners - not ALL - and MANY will be made righteous, but not ALL. 

ALL of that is to say, that you cannot use Romans 3:23 to “prove” Mary was a sinner, because, by your own admission, Paul is not talking about everyone who has ever lived, furthermore, Rom 5:18-19 shows that Paul, when saying the same thing as he said in Rom 3, uses the word “ALL” and the word “MANY” interchangeably. In other words, “ALL” is not an absolute.

John
1) Did you contradict yourself by first saying you were seeking God..."100% Yesssss"...and then by saying you are not seeking God?

Dancer
Wow I have never heard some of these questions put this way. But here goes
1. No I did not contradict myself because I said I was 100% yes seeking after God , then I went on to say that I was no longer seeking God because I found HIM , gotcha...

[Quotes from Psalms]

So back to actually Romans 3:9-18
There is no one righteous means no one is innocent . Every person is valuable in Gods eyes because God created us in His image and He loves us . But no one is righteous, that is no one can EARN right standing with God

John
You are correct in that in Romans 3 Paul is quoting from Psalm 14, and also Psalm 53.  But, you have a few problems still: 

1) The fact that Paul is quoting from these Psalms is evidence that he is not talking about every single person who has ever been born in Romans 3 when he uses the words: “All,” “No one,” and “No not one,” and “Not even one”.  Paul is not using these words as absolutes, just as they are not used as absolutes in the Psalms.  So, you are making my argument - that Romans 3:23 is not referring to absolutely every single person that will ever live - for me.  In Psalm 14 there are the fools who say there is no God - the evildoers - but then there are God’s “people”.  There is the “generation of the righteous”.  Psalm 53 also talks about these two distinct groups.  So, “all” and “no one” are not absolutes.  That’s the point I’ve been making all along, which the scales over your eyes are preventing you from seeing.

2) Your 2nd problem is that you are telling me what Rom 3:9-18 means.  What authority do you have to do that?  Why should I accept your interpretation of those verses?  Are you infallible?  You are giving me not the Word of God, but the Word of Dancer.  Where does the Bible say...where does the Word of God say...what you say?  Where does the Bible say, “There is no one righteous means no one is innocent?”  WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT?!  You go by the Bible alone, so I expect those words must be in the Bible, right?  Give me book, chapter, and verse!!!  I’ll answer the question for you - NOWHERE does the Bible say that.  Those are your words, not God’s.  So, again, tell me why I should believe your private, fallible interpretation?  What authority do you have to tell me that the Word of Dancer is worth anything?

3) Another problem - big problem - that you have, is this: If no one is righteous, then why does the Bible call all sorts of people “righteous”?  You never explained that.  Noah is specifically mentioned as a righteous man.  Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and elsewhere in the Old Testament mention the “righteous” numerous times.  In the New Testament, John the Baptist’s parents were called “righteous”.  So, if no one is righteous, if no one is “innocent,” then why are all these people being called “righteous”?  Why, Dancer, why?!  No one is righteous, no not one - well, except for Noah.  Yeah, okay, except for Elizabeth and Zechariah, too.  Yeah, yeah...there’s St. Joseph, too.  Oh, and Joseph of Arimathea...and all of the righteous folks whose prayer availeth much in James 5...and all of the righteous mentioned throughout the Old Testament.  But, other than that, no one is righteous, no not one!!!

4) And, yes, you contradicted yourself!  When I first asked you if you were seeking God, you replied with an enthusiastic "Yessss!!!!  100%!!!"  You had no thought whatsoever of saying anything like, "Yes I was seeking God but I'm not anymore because I've found him."  So, you found God in the few days between my emails asking you those questions?  Really?!  You hadn't found Him before that?  Be honest with yourself.  You had to make that up after I asked you my next question and put you in a bit of a scriptural bind.  You, essentially, changed your answer.  You contradicted yourself.  But, here's the even bigger problem for you: How is it you were seeking God in the first place, assuming you have indeed found Him, if "NO ONE" is seeking God?!  And, how is it, based on your answer about unbelievers being the ones not seeking God, that you were apparently seeking God as an unbeliever?!  I mean, once you're a believer that means you've found God, right?  So, you were seeking Him then as an unbeliever, but now you're saying that the Bible says unbelievers are not seeking God.  What a knot you've tied yourself into.

5) In other words, Dancer, in general, you don’t know what you are talking about, and you just kind of make things up as you go along.  The Bible doesn’t say what you are trying to make it say - those are your words - the Word of Dancer - not the Word of God.  It’s all very simple.  Those words are not meant as absolutes.  Period.  Yes, people are righteous.  The Bible tells us so.  Yes, people are seeking God.  The Bible tells us so.  Yes, people understand.  The Bible tells us so.  In other words, the words "all," "no one," "no not one," are not being used as absolutes in Romans 3.  Paul makes that very plain in Rom 5:18-19 when he uses “all” and “many” interchangeably. 

Besides, Jesus is an exception to “ALL” have sinned.  Babies are exceptions to “ALL” have sinned.  There are exceptions to “NO ONE” is righteous, “NO NOT ONE”.  So, why can’t Mary be an exception, too?  She can, and she is.  Because God Himself put enmity between her and Satan.  Because nothing with the stain of sin, nothing unclean, could have been the vessel by which the Lord, the God of Israel, came to be man. 

John
2) Before the Fall, Adam and Eve were sinless...did that make them equal to God?  Yes or no?

Dancer
Only and only JESUS WAS WITHOUT SIN as clearystated in scripture !!!!  Because Jesus came from God and God by His DIVINE NATURE is incapable  of sinning!  Adam and Eve were born were created by God with a sin NATURE as perfect as they were before the fall you could say SIN was dormant inside them. They only had to OBEY ONE COMMAND and they failed they sinned and look at the CONSEQUENCES that followed by the ONE SIN !!!!  I have never ever heard this question before , you obviously put a lot of thought into this one to JUSTIFY your other man made beliefs??

John
WOW!!!  You are saying that God created sin.  How blasphemous is that!!!  So, God created Adam and Eve perfect, but not perfect, because He created them with sin “dormant inside them”.  Where does the Bible say that?  Can you give me book, chapter, and verse, please?  Plus, doesn’t Romans 5 say that sin came into the world “through one man,” not because God created man with sin dormant within him? 

Is this another case of the Word of Dancer saying something that the Word of God does not?  So, when God saw, after He created Adam and Eve, that everything was, “Very good,” did He not see the sin dormant within Adam and Eve?  If God created man with sin within him, then man really wasn’t very good, was he?

So, you have to twist the Scriptures to get them to fit your perverted logic that being sinless means being equal to God, which is why you cannot admit that Adam and Eve were sinless before the Fall.  But, by all of what you have said here, you have fallen even deeper into the trap I laid for you. 

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that you are right, and Adam and Eve had sin dormant inside of them and, therefore, were not equal to God.  What about the angels in Heaven?  Is sin dormant inside of them?  So, they must, by your logic, be equal to God, right?  You claim that Mary being sinless would make her equal to God, so, by your logic, by the Word of Dancer, the angels in Heaven must be - MUST BE - equal to God, right? 

So, do you believe the sinless angels are equal to God, or not?  Yes or no?  If not, then will you admit that if Mary was indeed sinless, it would not make her equal to God?  Yes or no?  Quite a bind you’ve got yourself in...I’d love to see how you get out of it.

One last thing: where does the Bible “clearly state”:  “Only Jesus was without sin?”  Book, chapter, and verse, please. 

John
3) If a person does not do the works that God has prepared for them beforehand...are they still saved?  Yes or no?

Dancer
No they are obviously NOT SAVED they obviously NEVER had a true conversion, they are obviously not born again  because the BIBLE clearly COMMANDS us to do good works, which DO NOT SAVE US but to love one another to show mercy, compassion, to give and be forgiving. The BIBLE says you will know my disciples by their love for one another, again I refer back to Ephesians 2-8:9. Then after being saved , born again, by grace through faith NOT BY WORKS we then proceed to Ephesians 2:10. And DO the good works God prepared in advance for us to DO !!!!

John
Ah, yes, the ol’ “If they don’t do the works they were obviously never saved in the first place,” doctrine.  Just one problem: the Bible never, ever says such a thing.  Where in the Bible does it say, “If a person doesn’t do good works to accompany their faith then they were never really saved in the first place?”  Book, chapter, and verse, please.  And, how many good works are necessary to “prove” that they were really saved?  5?  10?  100?  1000?  How many?  If a man does good works for 20 years after he accepts Jesus into his heart as his personal Lord and Savior, then he stops doing them after 20 years, was he really saved in the first place?  Yes or no?

Once again, you give me the Word of Dancer and not the Word of God, and you ask me to accept the Word of Dancer based on what authority?  None.  You have no authority to tell me that anything I believe about Scripture is wrong.  None.  Yet, you act as if you are infallible and tell me that I am wrong to believe all of these different things I believe and that I am going to Hell for believing them.  How dare you!  Who set you up as the infallible judge of what Scripture does and does not say?!  Who set you up as my judge?!

James, chapter 2, states very clearly, and very unequivocally, that faith, by itself, is dead.  It doesn’t say faith without works is not faith, it says faith without works is dead faith.  In other words, faith...alone...does not save a man.  So says the Word of God. 

John 15:1-6, says that branches of the vine - which is Christ - can be cut off from the vine...cut off from Christ...if they do not produce fruit (good works).  And these branches are indeed saved believers because if they were not, they could not be branches of the vine.  So, they are saved, they are joined to Christ as branches of the vine, but they then lose their salvation - they are cut off from the vine - because they did not do good works. 

By the way, what you said here once again betrays your ignorance of Catholic teaching.  No one gains their salvation through good works - the Catholic Church nowhere teaches such a thing - but they can lose their salvation if they do not do the good works which God has prepared for them to do (Ephesians 2:10).  So, faith, by itself, can save no one.

John
4) In Galatians 3:1, it says that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed - before their very eyes - as being crucified.  Can you tell me how it was that Jesus was publicly "portrayed as crucified"?  Sounds like they were looking at a crucifix, doesn't it?

Dancer
Not even remotely THEY WERE NOT LOOKING AT A CRUCIFIX or any other man made object, no one had set up a monument or an image of any kind . I truly wish you would read the entire CHAPTER how it goes on to say whether to continue to try and follow the LAW or to just simply have the FAITH and BELIEVE!!!!!  But any way I don’t believe it was a crucifix, it was the fact that some of these people were EYEWITNESSES of the actual EVENT of Jesus Christ being CRUCIFIED!!!!! And they spread the news throughout that entire part of the world at that time , They had truly seen Jesus in PUBLIC ON THE CROSS so many people around that part of the world were either eye witnesses or had spread the news first hand to others then when he rose from the dead BEGAN THE CHRISTIAN FAITH and the gospel of GOOD NEWS BEGAN, so in that verse they are just referring to the ACTUAL EVENT OF JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED!!!!!!!!

John
In fact, you don’t know what they were or were not looking at!  “I don’t believe it was a crucifix.”  You don’t BELIEVE it was a crucifix?!  I don’t care what you believe or don’t believe in regard to this verse.  Why should I accept what you “believe”?  Is what you believe infallible?  It’s not is it?  So, will you admit that you could be wrong on this?  And where does the Bible say, “They were not looking at a crucifix?”  Word of Dancer or Word of God? 

And where does the Bible say that some of the Galatians were “EYEWITNESSES” of the Crucifixion?  You just made that up!!!  The Galatians Paul was writing to were Gentiles, not Jews.  They lived in Galatia, not Jerusalem.  Why would they have been at the Crucifixion?   Besides, does Paul say, “Some of you were witnesses to the Crucifixion,” or that “Jesus was publicly portrayed as crucified before some of your eyes.”  No, he’s talking to all of the Galatians. And look what it says, Dancer, it says Jesus was “portrayed” as being crucified before their eyes.  So, are you saying that Jesus was only “portrayed” as being crucified, but that He wasn’t really crucified? 

John
5) Have you ever been a drug addict?  Maybe an alcoholic?  If not, would you say that Jesus saved you from being a drug addict or an alcoholic? 

Dancer
Yes JESUS SAVED ME!!!!

John
Jesus saved you from being an alcoholic or a drug addict.  So, that would make Jesus your Savior in regard to alcoholism and drug addiction.  But, if you weren’t an alcoholic or a drug addict, then Jesus didn’t save you - at least, according to your logic in regard to Mary.  You see, Dancer, Jesus can save us from something after the fact, or He can save us from something before the fact.  He saved you from being an alcoholic or a drug addict before you ever became an alcoholic or a drug addict.  Just so He saved Mary from sin before she ever sinned.  Exact same reasoning. 

So, the fact that Mary says Jesus is her Savior does not “prove” that she sinned, as He saved her from sin before she ever sinned.  Once again, your logic, and your interpretation of the Bible, are flawed.

In Summary
Two last questions you asked that I would like to respond to very quickly:

1) Can anyone or has anyone ever kept the commandments??? 

My answer: Are not all things possible with God?  Furthermore, the Bible tells us, yes, we can keep the Commandments.  The rich young man in Matthew 19:20 had kept all of the Commandments.  Jesus Himself did not dispute this.  In Luke 1:6, the Word of God tells us that the parents of John the Baptist - Elizabeth and Zechariah - “Were both righteous before God, walking in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.”  They were righteous and they were blameless - sounds kind of like they didn’t sin, doesn’t it.  But, regardless, it says they kept “all” the commandments and ordinances of the Lord.  Do you dispute that?  It seems, from your question, that your knowledge of Scripture is a bit limited, which is causing errors in your theology.

2) Is salvation conditional?  You tell me.  Are all people saved?  If not, why not?  Didn’t Jesus die for all men and pay for the sins of all men?  The Bible tells us He did: “We have our hope set on the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” (1 Tim 4:10). Jesus died for all men - 2 Cor 5:14-15.  So, if Jesus died for all men - He redeemed all men - then why aren’t all men saved?  Is it because there is a condition to salvation?  Is it because there is something the redeemed and saved person does that the redeemed and unsaved person doesn’t do? 

Or does Jesus do something different for the saved as opposed to the unsaved?  Nope.  He died on the Cross for all of us.  So that can’t be the difference between being saved and being unsaved.  Isn’t the difference that the saved person has to DO something that the unsaved person doesn’t do?   They have to believe (John 3:16).  They have to have faith (Heb 11:6).  They have to be baptized (John 3:3-5; 1 Peter 3:20-21).  They have to forgive others of their sins (Matt 6:14-15).  They have to eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus Christ (John 6:51-58).  They have to care for their families (1 Tim 5:8).  They have to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46).  They have to do the will of the Father (Matt 7:21).  They have to provide some return - they have to do something - with the free gift that God has entrusted them with (Matt 25:14-30).  They have to deny themselves and pick up their cross daily (Luke 9:23).  And so much more!!!  And they do all of this - by the grace of God.  It is not of their own doing, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-10).

So, you tell me, is salvation conditional?  What does the Bible say?

Closing Comments

     Jesus, through His questions directed at the Pharisees, Saducees, scribes, and lawyers, was able to stop them in their tracks and show them that their understanding of Scripture was limited and flawed in many ways.  That's the same thing you see going on here.  All I'm doing with Dancer is using Jesus' technique of answering questions with questions, not to win an argument; rather to, hopefully, get the other person to have to stop and think about what they believe and why they believe it and to maybe...just maybe...plant a seed of truth.

     All of you, regardless of your ability, or lack thereof, to memorize Scripture, can do the very same thing in your conversations with Protestants.  No need to be intimidated.  No need to avoid.  Get into the arena and see how God can use you to plant some seeds...

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