Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #53

This issue of the newsletter takes us in a different direction than we normally travel. This is the opening round of a debate on whether or not Jesus is God. My opponent is a gentleman named Matthew Janzen who is a pastor of a church in Georgia…no particular denomination that I am aware of, but it is one that is apparently heavily influenced by the Messianic Judaism movement. You can check out his website at: www.ministersnewcovenant.org.

I will give his first round comments in their entirety, and then I will repeat what he said but intersperse my replies amidst his comments.

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Written Debate: Is Jesus God?

Matthew Janzen – negative: John Martignoni – affirmative

First Negative (by Matthew Janzen)

Let me begin by saying that I am pleased that Mr. Martignoni is willing to have such a discussion, and I hope that all will learn from what is written. Let me also briefly mention that I use the original name for the Father (Yahweh) and the Son (Yeshua) frequently in my writings.
This is mentioned so as for the reader to completely understand to whom I refer to.

The Point of Contention

I would like to point out what this debate is not about. It is not about whether or not Yeshua (Jesus) can be called God. I agree that Yeshua is called God in Scripture. My contention with Mr. Martignoni is that he believes Jesus is God, i.e. the second person of the Trinity. In other words, he believes that Jesus is co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father. Classic trinitarianism confesses one being of God, existing in three persons. I do not make such a confession, as I do not believe Yeshua to be “God the Son,” the second person of the Trinity.

Reasons I Do not Believe Yeshua is God

Now I would like to give ten reasons why the written word of Yahweh proves beyond a shadow of any doubt that Yeshua is not God Almighty. In the end the reader will have to choose between believing sacred Scripture or human tradition.

Reason #1: Who Do You Say That I Am?

This very question was asked by Yeshua to the Apostles in the gospel of Matthew. This is the very question we are discussing in this debate. What is the inspired answer to this inspired question? (Matthew 16:13-18). Two inspired answers were given by the Apostle Peter, but first remember, Peter gave his answer by revelation (vs. 17), and it was the foundation of the New Testament Church (vs. 18). This was not a partial revelation but a foundation, and it was
certainly not what some uninspired man taught or told him. The two answers were:

The Christ (Anointed One)

The Son of the living God

Where in this answer is my opponent’s position? Couldn’t Peter have just as easily said, “You are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” if Yeshua really was God?

Opponent’s Position: Yeshua (Jesus) is God

Peter’s Revelation: Yeshua is the Son of God

Who Will You Believe?

Reason #2: He Cannot Be Both

Yeshua cannot be both the Son of God and God for the same reason my opponent believes he cannot be both the Son of the Father and the Father. Notice that the Bible says: 2 John 1:3 – Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Yeshua (the) Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

My opponent believes the above verse proves that the Son is not the Father, and I agree with him. If the verse above proves this, why don’t the verses calling Yeshua the Son of God prove that He is not God? Where’s the consistency in this?

Revelation 2:18 – And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass.

Acts 8:37 – Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Yeshua (the) Christ is the Son of God. These Scriptures and many more, are crystal clear if we are just willing to believe them.

Reason #3: The Meaning of Son of God

Noah Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of the English Language defines the word “son” as follows: A male child; the male issue of a parent, father or mother. Jacob had twelve sons. Ishmael was the son of Hagar by Abraham.

Genesis 23:8…entreat for me to Ephron the son of Zohar…Does anyone here believe Ephron is really Zohar?

Exodus 31:6…I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach…Does anyone here believe Aholiab is really Ahisamach?

Matthew 23:35…unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah…Does anyone here believe Zachariah is really Barachiah?

Mark 1:1…The beginning of the gospel of Yeshua (the) Christ, the Son of God. Does anyone here believe Yeshua is really God? WHY?

- And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. [John 1:34]
- And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. [Acts 9:20]

Reason #4: 1 Timothy 2:5

My opponent will agree with me that there is only one God. This is to be understood as in a specific, unique sense of the word God. In light of this notice how Paul distinguishes Yeshua from that one God. He does not place Yeshua in the one God category.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man (the) Christ Yeshua.”

Notice the following: The one mediator mediates between the one God and men. If the
mediator mediates between the one God and men, then this proves he is neither the one God nor the men he is mediating for, right?

Thayer’s: One who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and
friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant. A medium of communication,arbitrator.

Strong’s: A go between, that is, (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor):—mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5 – Illustration:

- For there is one truck, and one car between the truck and us, a Toyota Corolla.

- For there is one boss, and one secretary between the boss and us, Sally Smith.

- For there is one Matthew Janzen, and one pulpit between Matthew Janzen and us, the pulpit of wood.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man (the) Christ Yeshua.

ONE God (Yahweh)

ONE MEDIATOR (Yeshua)

MEN (You and I)

I believe everyone reading this debate will agree with the first three examples above, but will have a difficult time accepting the fourth one, which is from the Bible, because of one thing – tradition of men.

Reason #5: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

Exodus 3:15 states: “And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”

Who was speaking in the above verse? Was it God? Notice now what Acts 3:13 states: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. Yahweh the Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has a Son, Yeshua the Christ. His Son is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Reason #6: Only Begotten Son

John 3:16 – For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son…

John 3:18 – …he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 4:9 – In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world…

THAYERS (definition for only begotten):

(1)Single of its kind, only; 1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents); 1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God.

- Luke 9:38 – …for he is mine only child.

- Luke 7:12 – …the only son of his mother…

- Luke 8:42 – For he had one only daughter…

- Hebrews 11:17 – By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had
received the promises offered up his only begotten son.

I don’t know of anyone who believes that Isaac is really Abraham. Hebrews 11:17 would prove this by calling Isaac, Abraham’s only begotten son. Yet Yeshua is called the only begotten Son of God. Wouldn’t the same logic prove that Yeshua was not God?

Reason #7: Adam Illustration

Luke 3:36-38 – …Cainan, Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”

We can become the sons of God (John 1:12; Galatians 3:26), but none of us will ever be a son of God like Adam was. He was a special son of God, seeing Yahweh created him from the dust of the earth without the process of pro-creation. Does anyone here believe that Adam, the son of God, was really God? Or does his being called the son of God prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Yahweh was his Father and his God? If Adam being called the son of God, proves he was not God, then Yeshua being called the son of God, ought to prove he is not God.

ADAM: Son of God (Luke 3:38)…This means he is not God.

YESHUA: Son of God (Luke 1:35)…This means he is God?

A difference between Yeshua and Adam is that Yeshua was begotten through the womb of a virgin and he lived a sinless life. Two things Adam did not take part in. The point though is, both are called the son of God, meaning that God caused both to come into existence, proving neither is God.

Reason #8: Acts 7:55-56, “But he (Stephen) being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Yeshua standing on the right hand of God. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”

How could Yeshua be standing on the right hand of God, and be the God he was standing next to?

Psalms 16:8 – “I have set Yahweh always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.” Yahweh is here said to be at David’s right hand. Doesn’t this imply two parties? The Bible is explicit that Yeshua is now on the right hand of God.

- Colossians 3:1 – …where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

- Hebrews 10:12 – But this man… sat down on the right hand of God.

Reason #9: James 2:19, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and tremble.”

- Matthew 8:28-29 – …What have we to do with thee, Yeshua, thou Son of God?

- Mark 3:11 – And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

- Luke 4:41 – …Thou art (the) Christ the Son of God.

- Luke 8:27-28 – …thou Son of God Most High? I beseech thee, torment me not.

The Point: The demons believe in one God (James 2:19). The demons believe Yeshua is the Son of God (Mark 3:11). The demons believe Yeshua is the Son of the Most High (Luke 8:28). The demons thus cannot believe that Yeshua is God or the Most High, but rather God’s Son, or the Most High’s Son. Are they wrong?

Reason #10: John 14:1, “Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.”

Here Yeshua tells his disciples that they should believe in God (Yahweh) and believe also in him. The teaching is very plain. The word also necessarily implies God and another party.

Conclusion

The only conclusion that one can come to based upon Scripture is that Yeshua is the Son of God rather than being God. We will now see how Mr. Martignoni responds to the Scriptures. Please read his speech carefully.

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Matthew Janzen

The Point of Contention

I would like to point out what this debate is not about. It is not about whether or not Yeshua (Jesus) can be called God. I agree that Yeshua is called God in Scripture. My contention with Mr. Martignoni is that he believes Jesus is God, i.e. the second person of the Trinity. In other words, he believes that Jesus is co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father. Classic trinitarianism confesses one being of God, existing in three persons. I do not make such a confession, as I do not believe Yeshua to be “God the Son,” the second person of the Trinity.

John Martignoni

I got a chuckle out of Matthew’s very first point. I was wondering how he was going to interpret away the verses that refer specifically to Jesus as God. Well, I was wrong, he didn’t interpret them away, he just ignored them. He admits that Jesus is referred to as “God” in Scripture, and then proceeds to ignore that fact. He gives no reasons as to why he can ignore the fact that Scripture calls Jesus “God.”

God, through Scripture, calls Jesus “God.” Matthew Janzen does not. So, should you believe God, or should you believe Matthew Janzen?

Matthew Janzen

Reasons I Do not Believe Yeshua is God

Now I would like to give ten reasons why the written word of Yahweh proves beyond a shadow of any doubt that Yeshua [Jesus] is not God Almighty. In the end the reader will have to choose between believing sacred Scripture or human tradition.

John Martignoni

Matthew states that the Bible “proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Yeshua [Jesus] is not God Almighty.” Does it? Then why do I and some 1.6 billion other Christians, doubt it? And, again, why does it call Jesus “God”?

He also states that, “…the reader will have to choose between believing Sacred Scripture or human tradition.” He is correct. But, his position is actually the “human tradition” to which he refers. Furthermore, his position is compounded by the fact that he relies on this “human tradition” for his most fundamental beliefs. Why does he believe the Gospel of Mark is the inspired word of God? Do the Scriptures tell him so? No, they don’t. So, how does he know the Gospel of Mark is the inspired word of God? He has to rely on tradition in order to believe this. Just so he relies on tradition to believe that Matthew, John, Luke, James, 1 Corinthians, and all the other books are indeed the inspired word of God. He’s caught in a bit of a bind here…railing against tradition, while at the same time depending on it for his core beliefs.

Reason #1: Who Do You Say That I Am?

This very question was asked by Yeshua to the Apostles in the gospel of Matthew. This is the very question we are discussing in this debate. What is the inspired answer to this inspired question? (Matthew 16:13-18). Two inspired answers were given by the Apostle Peter, but first remember, Peter gave his answer by revelation (vs. 17), and it was the foundation of the New Testament Church (vs. 18). This was not a partial revelation but a foundation, and it was
certainly not what some uninspired man taught or told him. The two answers were:

The Christ (Anointed One)

The Son of the living God

Where in this answer is my opponent’s position? Couldn’t Peter have just as easily said, “You are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” if Yeshua really was God?

Opponent’s Position: Yeshua (Jesus) is God

Peter’s Revelation: Yeshua is the Son of God

Who Will You Believe?

John Martignoni

Peter states that Jesus is the Son of God. As a Christian, I believe that. Peter’s answer in no way contradicts Christian teaching about the Trinity. Jesus is God, and He is the Son of God. Matthew has presented nothing here to cast doubt upon this belief. His basic argument is simply: Jesus is either God, or the Son of God, He can’t be both. He doesn’t seem to truly understand Christian teaching on this matter.

For his argument here, I have one comment and one question. Matthew asks: “Couldn’t Peter have just as easily said, ‘You are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,’ if Yeshua really was God? This is basically an argument from silence, which is never a good argument to make. The argument is: Peter didn’t just say, “You’re God,” when he had the perfect opportunity to do so, so that means Jesus isn’t God. But, the problem is, if Peter had said, “You’re God,” then Matthew would have simply said, “Sure, Scripture says Jesus is God, but that doesn’t mean he is God,” and then ignore the verse altogether…(see “Point of Contention” above).

Question: Why, when Thomas calls Jesus, “My Lord and my God,” (John 20:28) do you not believe Jesus to be Thomas’ God?

Matthew Janzen

Reason #2: He Cannot Be Both

Yeshua cannot be both the Son of God and God for the same reason my opponent believes he cannot be both the Son of the Father and the Father. Notice that the Bible says: 2 John 1:3 – Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Yeshua (the) Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

My opponent believes the above verse proves that the Son is not the Father, and I agree with him. If the verse above proves this, why don’t the verses calling Yeshua the Son of God prove that He is not God? Where’s the consistency in this?

Revelation 2:18 – And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass.

Acts 8:37 – Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Yeshua (the) Christ is the Son of God. These Scriptures and many more, are crystal clear if we are just willing to believe them.

John Martignoni

Matthew states: “Yeshua cannot be both the Son of God and God for the same reason my opponent believes he cannot be both the Son of the Father and the Father?” Really?! I’d like to know what that reason is. Unfortunately, Matthew doesn’t tell us.

He goes on to state that I believe 2 John 1:3 “proves that the Son is not the Father.” Actually, I don’t believe it “proves” any such thing. I believe it is evidence of that fact, but not proof in and of itself. Again, his argument here proves absolutely nothing. He merely repeats that Jesus cannot be both God and the Son of God, but doesn’t really say why.

His Scripture verses merely state that Jesus is the Son of God. Again, I agree! Nowhere, though, do they say He isn’t God. Again, Trinitarian teaching says that Jesus, the Son of God, is God. Matthew has done nothing so far to cast doubt on that belief.

Matthew Janzen

Reason #3: The Meaning of Son of God

Noah Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of the English Language defines the word “son” as follows: A male child; the male issue of a parent, father or mother. Jacob had twelve sons. Ishmael was the son of Hagar by Abraham.

Genesis 23:8…entreat for me to Ephron the son of Zohar…Does anyone here believe Ephron is really Zohar?

Exodus 31:6…I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach…Does anyone here believe Aholiab is really Ahisamach?

Matthew 23:35…unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah…Does anyone here believe Zachariah is really Barachiah?

Mark 1:1…The beginning of the gospel of Yeshua (the) Christ, the Son of God. Does anyone here believe Yeshua is really God? WHY?

- And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. [John 1:34]
- And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. [Acts 9:20]

John Martignoni

Again, no substantial argument is presented. I agree that the sons mentioned in all the Scripture verses Matthew uses are not the same persons as their fathers. Just as I agree that the Son of God is not the same person as His Father.

Matthew’s arguments are not to the point. Is the son the same person as the father? No. I agree. That’s not the argument. Christians do not argue that the Son is the same person as the Father. The argument is this: Is the Son the same “nature” as the Father? Matthew doesn’t address this at all.

Is Ephron the same person as Zohar? No. Does he have the same nature (human) as Zohar? Yes. Is Aholiab the same person as Ahisamach? No. Does he have the same nature (human) as Ahisamach? Yes. Does Matthew deny these statements? Is Jesus the same person as the Father? No. Does Jesus have the same nature (divine) as the Father? Yes! And, if Jesus has the same nature as the Father, and the Father’s nature is divine, then Jesus’ nature is divine.

So, is the Son the same person as the Father? No. Does the Son have the same nature as the Father? Yes. And, nothing Matthew has presented so far argues to the contrary.

Matthew Janzen

Reason #4: 1 Timothy 2:5

My opponent will agree with me that there is only one God. This is to be understood as in a specific, unique sense of the word God. In light of this notice how Paul distinguishes Yeshua from that one God. He does not place Yeshua in the one God category.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man (the) Christ Yeshua.”

Notice the following: The one mediator mediates between the one God and men. If the
mediator mediates between the one God and men, then this proves he is neither the one God nor the men he is mediating for, right?

Thayer’s: One who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and
friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant. A medium of communication,arbitrator.

Strong’s: A go between, that is, (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor):—mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5 – Illustration:

- For there is one truck, and one car between the truck and us, a Toyota Corolla.

- For there is one boss, and one secretary between the boss and us, Sally Smith.

- For there is one Matthew Janzen, and one pulpit between Matthew Janzen and us, the pulpit of wood.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man (the) Christ Yeshua.

ONE God (Yahweh)

ONE MEDIATOR (Yeshua)

MEN (You and I)

I believe everyone reading this debate will agree with the first three examples above, but will have a difficult time accepting the fourth one, which is from the Bible, because of one thing – tradition of men.

John Martignoni

Matthew states: “Notice the following: The one mediator mediates between the one God and men. If the mediator mediates between the one God and men, then this proves he is neither the one God nor the men he is mediating for, right?”

Jesus, as true God and true man, is indeed the one mediator between God and men. If, however, this verse “proves” that Jesus isn’t God, because He is mediating “between” God and men, then it also “proves” that Jesus wasn’t a man. If the word “between” means that He wasn’t what appears before the word, then it also means that He wasn’t what appears after the word. And, in actuality, this is pretty much what Matthew is left to argue…that Jesus is neither God nor man. After all, what mere man can raise the dead by his own power? What mere man can heal the sick by his own power? What mere man was “in the beginning with God”? What mere man can forgive sins by his own power? What mere man’s death can pay the debt owed by all men? Yet, Jesus did all of these things.

Think about this: Man sinned against an infinite God. He sinned against infinite goodness. So, is the price that needs to be paid for mankind’s sin against an infinite God…against infinite goodness…is that price a finite price? Obviously not. If you sin against infinite good, an infinite price has to be paid for that sin. Who can pay an infinite price…man, or God? One thing is for sure, man cannot. So, if Jesus’ death on the cross redeemed all of mankind…paid the price for man’s sins against God…then He can’t be a mere man, can He? If He’s not a man, and Matthew is arguing that He is not God, then, Matthew, what is He?

Matthew Janzen

Reason #5: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

Exodus 3:15 states: “And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”

Who was speaking in the above verse? Was it God? Notice now what Acts 3:13 states: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. Yahweh the Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has a Son, Yeshua the Christ. His Son is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

John Martignoni

Repetition of the same argument – the Son cannot be the Father. Well, who said He was? I will use the passage he uses from Exodus, though, to help make my case. In Exodus 3:13-14, Moses asks God His name. God replies that His name is “I Am.” In John 8:58, how does Jesus identify Himself? “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus identifies Himself by using the name that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob used to identify Himself. What happens? The Jews try to stone Him. Why? Because stoning is the punishment for blasphemy. So, either Jesus blasphemed, by applying God’s name to Himself, or He was indeed God. So, is Jesus a blasphemer or is He God? Matthew’s position leads to Jesus being a blasphemer.

Matthew Janzen

Reason #6: Only Begotten Son

John 3:16 – For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son…

John 3:18 – …he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 4:9 – In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world…

THAYERS (definition for only begotten):

(1)Single of its kind, only; 1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents); 1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God.

- Luke 9:38 – …for he is mine only child.

- Luke 7:12 – …the only son of his mother…

- Luke 8:42 – For he had one only daughter…

- Hebrews 11:17 – By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had
received the promises offered up his only begotten son.

I don’t know of anyone who believes that Isaac is really Abraham. Hebrews 11:17 would prove this by calling Isaac, Abraham’s only begotten son. Yet Yeshua is called the only begotten Son of God. Wouldn’t the same logic prove that Yeshua was not God?

John Martignoni

Again, he repeats the same irrelevant argument about the son not being the father. Also, in the phrase, “only begotten,” he focuses on the “only” part, when he should be focusing on the “begotten” part. Does “beget” mean the same thing as “create”? No. Jesus was not created, He was begotten. Men were created, Jesus was begotten. Very important difference. So, again, he can’t be a mere man, can He? But, if He’s not God, then what is He, Matthew?

Does something of one nature, beget something of a completely different nature? Does a man beget something that is not a man? Does a frog beget something that is not a frog? Does a fish beget something that is not a fish? The word beget is used to show that Jesus is of the same nature as God. Human begets human. Divine begets divine. God is divine. So, Jesus is divine. He shares God the Father’s own nature. If He shares the divine nature, by virtue of being “begotten” of the Father, then He is indeed divine…He is indeed God.

Matthew Janzen

Reason #7: Adam Illustration

Luke 3:36-38 – …Cainan, Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”

We can become the sons of God (John 1:12; Galatians 3:26), but none of us will ever be a son of God like Adam was. He was a special son of God, seeing Yahweh created him from the dust of the earth without the process of pro-creation. Does anyone here believe that Adam, the son of God, was really God? Or does his being called the son of God prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Yahweh was his Father and his God? If Adam being called the son of God, proves he was not God, then Yeshua being called the son of God, ought to prove he is not God.

ADAM: Son of God (Luke 3:38)…This means he is not God.

YESHUA: Son of God (Luke 1:35)…This means he is God?

A difference between Yeshua and Adam is that Yeshua was begotten through the womb of a virgin and he lived a sinless life. Two things Adam did not take part in. The point though is, both are called the son of God, meaning that God caused both to come into existence, proving neither is God.

John Martignoni

Again, Matthew’s argument swerves off course. He basically says that since Adam is called the son of God in Luke 3:38, and he isn’t God, then since Jesus is also called the son of God (Luke 1:35), that means Jesus can’t be God either. Sorry, Matthew, but the logic doesn’t hold. For one thing, you don’t take into account that Adam was created, but Jesus was begotten. Adam is an adopted son of God, Jesus is not. Big difference.

Also, God is called Father. He is God. I am also called father. Therefore, I must also be God. Same term, “father,” applies to both of us, so if one of us is God, then both of us must be God. At least, by Matthew’s logic.

Matthew Janzen

Reason #8: Acts 7:55-56, “But he (Stephen) being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Yeshua standing on the right hand of God. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”

How could Yeshua be standing on the right hand of God, and be the God he was standing next to?

Psalms 16:8 – “I have set Yahweh always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.” Yahweh is here said to be at David’s right hand. Doesn’t this imply two parties? The Bible is explicit that Yeshua is now on the right hand of God.

- Colossians 3:1 – …where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

- Hebrews 10:12 – But this man… sat down on the right hand of God.

Reason #9: James 2:19, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and tremble.”

- Matthew 8:28-29 – …What have we to do with thee, Yeshua, thou Son of God?

- Mark 3:11 – And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

- Luke 4:41 – …Thou art (the) Christ the Son of God.

- Luke 8:27-28 – …thou Son of God Most High? I beseech thee, torment me not.

The Point: The demons believe in one God (James 2:19). The demons believe Yeshua is the Son of God (Mark 3:11). The demons believe Yeshua is the Son of the Most High (Luke 8:28). The demons thus cannot believe that Yeshua is God or the Most High, but rather God’s Son, or the Most High’s Son. Are they wrong?

Reason #10: John 14:1, “Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.”

Here Yeshua tells his disciples that they should believe in God (Yahweh) and believe also in him. The teaching is very plain. The word also necessarily implies God and another party.

John Martignoni

Reasons #8 and #9 – again, the same argument as above…the son cannot be the father. Again, the same response as above…I agree. The fact that Jesus is standing on the right hand of God does absolutely nothing for his argument…God the Son and God the Father, are, afterall, two different persons.

Regarding his reason #10, where he quotes John 14:1, “Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.” He states, apparently infallibly, that the word also “necessarily implies God and another party.” It does? Could it not also possibly imply that they didn’t yet understand exactly who and what He was, and He was essentially telling them that He was indeed God by telling them to believe in Him? He is putting belief in God on a par with belief in Himself. If they believe in God, He tells them, then believe in Him no less. Does not John 14 go on to say that those who know Jesus, know the Father? And that those who have seen Jesus have seen the Father? How is that if Jesus is not God?

Matthew Janzen

Conclusion

The only conclusion that one can come to based upon Scripture is that Yeshua is the Son of God rather than being God. We will now see how Mr. Martignoni responds to the Scriptures. Please read his speech carefully.

John Martignoni

I beg to differ regarding the “only conclusion” that Matthew believes one can come to based upon Scripture. Yes Jesus is the Son of God, but as the Son of God, He is also God. So, please do read my “speech” carefully and please carefully consider the following Scriptures as well:

Titus 2:13, “…our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ…”

Titus 3:4, “…God our Savior…”

1 John 4:14, “…the Father has sent His Son as the Savior of the world.”

Please note that Scripture refers to Jesus Christ as the “Savior” and that it also refers to the “Savior” as God.

John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” What human being would ever say, “I and the Father are one?”

Isaiah 62:5, “…as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.”

Matt 9:15, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them?”

God is the bridegroom. Jesus is the bridegroom. Jesus is God.

Romans 9:5, “to [the Israelites] belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, Who is God over all…” The Christ, Jesus, is God over all…so saith the Scriptures.

In Conclusion

One last thing. I may not get a newsletter out to you next week. I’m currently waiting on a response to my comments from Matthew Janzen and if it doesn’t come in real soon then I will not be able to get a newsletter done next week since I’ll be going out of town for a few days to speak at a NACHE Homeschooling Conference in Baltimore. So, if you don’t hear from me next week, that’s why. But, if not next week, then definitely the week after.

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