Apologetics for the Masses #438 - A Facebook Conversation with a Protestant, Part 1

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Topic

A Fairly Typical (More or Less) Facebook Conversation with a Protestant, Part 2

General Comments

Hey folks,

A couple of things before we get down to business this week:

1) To address an error in last week's newsletter, I will say that I hope all of you had quiet, peaceful, and spiritually profitable seasons of ADVENT (not Lent) and Christmas. (You guys keep me honest!)

2) Again, if you live in or around the Diocese of Birmingham (Alabama), you can find some blessings at our annual Diocesan Women's Conference on Saturday, February 11th, at Prince of Peace Catholic Church in Hoover (suburb of Birmingham) from 8:30 AM - 12:00 PM. Two absolutely fantastic speakers: Kitty Cleveland and Emily Wilson! There is no cost to attend, but you must make a reservation. To do so, simply send me an email with your name to: john@biblechristiansociety.com. Space is limited, so register sooner rather than later. It should be awesome!

Introduction

Last week I introduced you to one Marie Taylor, a fairly fanatical anti-Catholic who I hooked horns with on a subscriber's Facebook page. I put the first few rounds of my dialogue with her - if you could actually call it a dialogue - in the newsletter last week without comment. This week I'm going to put in the same first few rounds of my back and forth with Marie as last week, but add in my commentary. I'll also add just a bit more of the dialogue.

Just a note, Marie invited me (dared me, actually) to join 3 or 4 anti-Catholic Facebook pages that she frequents/moderates to respond to her postings on those pages. She is attempting to answer the videos in my YouTube series: Questions Protestants Can't Answer. I thought I might be able to get some good material to put in future newsletters that could be instructional for my subscribers, as well as possibly some stuff that I could use in my new book - which is due out in the Spring - so I joined those FB pages. I got a little bit of useful material, but the folks on those pages are so virulently anti-Catholic, and so twisted in their logic and their Scripture interpretations, that after engaging for a day...probably a hundred posts or more...I decided enough was enough. I'll throw in some of what happened there in my commentary in this newsletter and the next one or two in this particular series.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy...

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, Marie Taylor...

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Marie Taylor to L.L. Michael:

Can you show that the apostles taught Mary was conceived without sin and that you must believe this to avoid condemnation? And can you explain why at least 7 of your popes denied that Mary was conceived without sin?

John S. Martignoni to Marie Taylor
Can you show that the Apostles taught that all authentically Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture?

My Comments

Okay, I asked the question I did to see if Marie was going to be consistent in her logic. If the Apostles are the litmus test for accepting the Immaculate Conception, as she was essentially saying to L.L. Michael, then they ought to be the litmus test for all Christian teaching. So, where did the Apostles teach that all authentically Christian beliefs are found directly in the Bible - i.e., Sola Scriptura? Little did I know the mind searing trouble that the word "authentically" would cause Marie.

Marie Taylor
To answer your question, you'll need to define "authentically". What makes something "authentic"? Is there unauthentic Christian teaching? Please explain.
I will also add that Sola Scriptura does not deny tradition. It accepts all traditionally held beliefs that are either 1) traced to the apostles (and you don't have any of these that are not in Scripture) or 2) does not contradict Scripture (this is where the errors of your religion are noted).
But I'm glad you joined the discussion. Do you know the message of salvation? If so, what is it?

Also, I'd like to personally invite you to join the group Catholics or Christians. Ken is a member there and he and the other Catholics could use some apologetic help. Don't you have a list of questions you believe we Protestants cannot answer? I'd love for you to do a series in the group to see if it is true that the questions cannot be answered. Are you up for the challenge?

John S. Martignoni
To your questions:

1) Definition of "Authentic" - Being so in fact; not fraudulent or counterfeit.

2) "Is there unauthentic Christian teaching?" Yes, there is, in the sense that there are people who call themselves Christians who pass off "unauthentic" (i.e., false) teachings as being true Christian teachings. For example, there are those who profess to be Christian who believe the doctrine of once saved always saved is an authentic Christian teaching. There are others who profess to be Christian who do not believe once saved always saved is an authentic Christian teaching. So, one of those groups of professed Christians is teaching an authentic Christian doctrine, and one of them is not. There are many such examples of teachings in Protestant theology that are not authentic Christian teachings and over which Protestants contradict themselves, as the above example of once saved always saved demonstrates.
3) Of course Sola Scriptura does not deny tradition, since it is itself a man-made tradition.

Now that I have defined the word "authentic" for you, I would ask that you please answer my question: "Can you show that the Apostles taught that all authentically Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture?"

And, I do indeed have a list of questions that Protestants cannot answer. At least, they cannot answer them in a scripturally and/or logically consistent manner vis-a-vis their theology.

My Comments

What makes something "authentic"? And, "Is there unauthentic Christian teaching?" Oh my goodness. Marie is trying to be oh so clever with her words here. She's trying to lay down some snares for me to step into. And, in so doing, she's basically trying to avoid answering my question. Always be on the look out for questions like this - questions that really have nothing to do with the topic at hand and the question you're asking.

Anyway, first I gave her a simple dictionary definition of "authentic". Second, in a technical sense, there is indeed no such thing as an "unauthentic Christian teaching". If it's unauthentic, then that means it's not true, which means it isn't a Christian teaching. However, as I explained in #2 above, there are doctrines and dogmas that a lot of Christians believe that are not authentic Christian teachings - Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Once Saved Always Saved, the Rapture, etc. - yet they are taught by Christians and Christians only. So, in that sense, they are Christian teachings. Unauthentic and completely false Christian teachings, but teachings taught by Christians nonetheless. Do you think taking the time to lay that out for Marie made a difference? Read on...

Marie Taylor
1) What makes something "being so in fact"? Please be specific.

     2) If a teaching is unauthentic, it really isn't Christian, is it?
     3) Can you define Sola Scriptura for us? If you can, you'll see that Jesus taught it. If you can't then it is your definition that is man-made, isn't it?
     And to your question, I would deny that a teaching that is not authentic is Christian. Can you re-phrase your question? Do you mean to ask, "Can you show that the Apostles taught that all apostolic Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture?"
     And would you be willing to join Catholics or Christians and start a series asking one of your questions at a time?

Also, I asked you a question above that you did not answer. Here it is again: Do you know the message of salvation? If so, what is it?

John S. Martignoni
Don't play word games. You're not going to be one of those Protestants who parses words down to the individual letters so as to avoid answering direct questions with direct answers, are you?

1) "What makes something, 'being so in fact'?" Really?! Is English not your first language? "Being so in fact," means something is true. That's not that difficult to understand.
2) "If a teaching is unauthentic, it really isn't Christian, is it?" I knew you would play that game, which is why I gave an example of what I was referring to and how there are many Protestants who call themselves Christian who teach many unauthentic teachings that are referred to as "Christian" teachings because they pass them off as "Christian" teachings - Sola Scriptura, for example. If something is an unauthentic Christian teaching, then, yes, it is not a true Christian teaching. However, do you believe that everything every Christian believes about the Christian faith is true? If not, then can it not be said that there are Christians teaching things as Christian doctrine that are not authentic (i.e., true) Christian doctrine. Yes or no?

3) You want me to define your doctrine for you? Which version of Sola Scriptura do you want? It pretty much depends on which Protestant you talk to as to what their definition of Sola Scriptura is. By the way, if two Protestants have different definitions as to what Sola Scriptura means, then by what authority do you decide who is right and who is wrong? Oh, and please do give me book, chapter, and verse where Jesus taught Sola Scriptura. If you can't, then I guess it is indeed a man-made tradition, isn't it?

4) I failed to answer one of your questions from an earlier post, my apologies: "Do you know the message of salvation?" I suppose you are referring to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, yes? That's the "test" you guys give to make sure someone is authentically Christian, right? So, let me ask a "message of salvation" question of my own: What must you do to have eternal life?

To simplify, here is the growing list of questions for you. I have replied to you point-by-point, answered every question you have asked. You, have played word games. So, to answer your final question, will I be willing to join Catholics and Christians, depends on how (and if) you answer these questions that I have already asked. Here they are:

     1) Can you show that the Apostles taught that all authentically (i.e. true) Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture?
     2) Do you believe that everything every Christian believes about the Christian faith is true? Yes or no? If not, then can it not be said that there are Christians teaching things as Christian doctrine that are not authentic (i.e., true) Christian doctrine. Yes or no?
     3) If two Protestants have different definitions as to what Sola Scriptura means, then by what authority do you decide who is right and who is wrong?
     4) Can you give me book, chapter, and verse where Jesus taught Sola Scriptura? If you can't, then I guess it is indeed a man-made tradition, isn't it?
     5) What must you do to have eternal life?

My Comments

First, she doesn't understand the word "authentic," and now, she doesn't understand the phrase, "being so in fact"?! Oh, my! This is where I should have just said to her: "Look, learn how to look things up in a dictionary and then come back to this discussion," and moved on. But, I thought there might be something useful to gain by continuing because I knew, if I could get her to stop trying to be clever and get serious for just a minute, that I could, with just a question or two, show her theology to be exceedingly deficient and maybe plant a seed or two. Or, again, at least pick up something useful to share in the newsletter that would maybe help some of the readers with their future Facebook conversations.

What we have here, folks, is a person who is not interested in learning truth, putting forth serious arguments, or asking sincere questions - no, she wants to play games and prove that she is more clever than the poor unsaved, intellectually and morally deficient Catholic. These are the ones that can be particularly irritating to deal with and who, almost always, turn out to be a waste of time and energy.

So, I called her out on her word games and then directly addressed each one of her points/questions. Then, I laid out all the questions that I had asked her which had gone unanswered, which is the same as the number of questions I had asked at that point. Always keep track of the questions you have asked, particularly the ones that have not been answered, and keep repeating them until you get answers or until it is obvious that no answers will be forthcoming - which usually just takes asking the question(s) 3 times. If they haven't been addressed after being asked 3 times, then I generally advise moving on. That conversation is a waste of your time and can do pretty much nothing except cause you frustration. As would be the case here if I didn't have more than one motive for the conversation.

Note, with my Question #3 above, I'm going straight to the question of authority. Get to authority as quickly as possible, no matter where the conversation starts off. I've said this dozens of times - the underlying issue on every disagreement between Catholic and Protestant is the issue of authority. Park yourself there.

Another thing here I want you to pay attention to...her question to me about whether or not I know what the "Message of Salvation" is. This is one of those Protestant tests folks ask to try and trip up Catholics and to prove, to themselves, that they are spiritually superior to Catholics and that their scripture knowledge is vastly superior to that of any Catholic. It's along the lines of: Are you saved? Or: If you were to die tonight and go before the throne of God, what would you say to Him as to why He should let you into Heaven? This time its: Do you know what the "Message of Salvation" is? Or, it might be phrased, "Do you know what the Gospel is?" Or, "Do you know what is of 'first importance' to God?"

The "correct" answer, according to these folks, is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, which is talking about Jesus dying for our sins. Which, just so happens, the Catechism of the Catholic Church talks about in I don't know how many places...but it's a lot! So, just keep 1 Cor 15:1-4 in mind should you ever be asked that question. But, as you will see, and as she repeated time and again on those anti-Catholic FB pages I mentioned above, even though I gave her the "correct" answer, she continued to deny that I knew what the answer was. She is one of the most disingenous people I have ever dealt with. Right up there with the likes of Mike Gendron and a couple of others. It was pathetic. But I'll talk more about that in the next installment of the newsletter.

And did you notice how she wants me to define Sola Scriptura for her. Why? So she can come back and say, "No, that's not what Sola Scriptura means!" and then laugh at my ignorance. Nope not going there. At least, not at first (I'll come back to this later). If I do answer, though, the problem for her is that my definition of Sola Scriptura comes from Protestants. So, if I were to be accused of being wrong on that count, it would actually be Marie's fellow Protestants who would be "wrong". And this thing about Jesus teaching Sola Scriptura. You ever see anything like that, you've got to focus in on that. Give me book, chapter, and verse where He does so!

Finally, you see how she wants me to re-word my question? Why? Because she obviously can't answer it as worded. At least, not in a way that fits in with the games she wants to play. She undoubtedly has up her sleeve what she considers to be a clever answer to the question as she wants me to ask it. So, she won't answer the question I asked, but she will answer the question she wants me to ask. Nope, not going there. Don't ever let someone tell you what you really mean to ask.

Marie Taylor
     1) what makes something true? According to your religion that would be something the apostles taught, right? There is no new revelation after the apostles, you know (CCC 76). Why would you not be willing to change your question to, "Can you show that the Apostles taught that all apostolic Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture?" Then I would know exactly what you mean. Shouldn't be an issue given CCC 76.
     2) You didn't answer the question. If a teaching is unauthentic, it really isn't Christian, is it? Shouldn't you change this word to "apostolic"?
     3) And no, I'd like you to define what you THINK the doctrine of Sola Scriptura encompasses. And there is only one definition provided by the Reformers. They coined the word, so they get to define it. So, what is its meaning?
     4) No, I didn't want I Cor. 15:1-4. That isn't specific enough. Moreover, I'd like to know the message of salvation as taught by your religion. Do you not know how your religion defines this message? I noticed you didn't answer it.

And then you just added questions to the list. Slow down, and let's clarify and answer what has been asked thus far.
Finally, are you up to the challenge of joining our group and starting your series? Are you afraid that your questions CAN, actually, be answered?

My Comments

Just a quick comment or two this week and then I'll pick up here next week with my reply. But, can you believe it?! "What makes something true?" Oh my goodness! What does authentic mean? What does "being so in fact" mean? And, now, what makes something true? Does that question sound familiar? Pontius Pilate, "What is truth?" (John 18:38). Marie Taylor shows herself to be a spiritual heir of Pontius Pilate.

And, notice what she says about my answer to her question about the "Message of Salvation" - "No, I didn't want I Cor. 15:1-4. That isn't specific enough." So, according to Marie...wrong answer. Until later when it becomes the right answer, as I'll discuss next week.

That's it for now...

Closing Comments

I hope you have enjoyed this newsletter, even if Marie's answers, rather her responses (can't call them answers), might be driving you crazy. And I hope all of you have a great week! Don't forget to sign up for the women's conference in Birmingham on February 11th if you're anywhere close by!

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