Apologetics for the Masses #437 - A Facebook Conversation with a Protestant

Bible Christian Society

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Topic

A Fairly Typical (More or Less) Facebook Conversation with a Protestant

General Comments

Hey folks,

     A couple of things before we get down to business this week:

     1) I hope all of you had quiet, peaceful, and spiritually profitable seasons of Lent and Christmas.  And I pray that 2023 is a year that brings you and your loved ones many blessings!

     2) And, if you live in or around the Diocese of Birmingham (Alabama), you can find some blessings at our annual Diocesan Women's Conference on Saturday, February 11th, at Prince of Peace Catholic Church in Hoover (suburb of Birmingham) from 8:30 AM - 12:00 PM.  Two absolutely fantastic speakers: Kitty Cleveland and Emily Wilson!  There is no cost to attend, but you must make a reservation.  To do so, simply send me an email with your name to: john@biblechristiansociety.com.  Space is limited, so register sooner rather than later.  It should be awesome!

Introduction

    Christmas vacation is over and it's good to be back in the saddle, so to speak.  This week I am going to introduce you to one Marie Taylor.  She is a Protestant who goes after Catholics with a vigor on Facebook.  I wound up engaging with her at the behest of someone who had emailed me about some Protestants on another person's Facebook page who were being a bit of a nuisance.  So, I jumped in on a conversation she was involved in and she and I got into it.  Below is the first of several rounds of exchanges with her.  As you will see, she is something else. 

     My intent with today's newsletter was to include a few rounds of back and forth with Marie and put my comments in there between each round...as I usually do in these dialogues.  However, the last few days, and today, in particular, I have been absolutely slammed with all sorts of things coming at me from every which direction.  I.e., crazy busy day!  So, here I am at 5:00 PM finally getting to writing this newsletter which I had hoped to start several hours ago.

     Anyway, because things haven't gone as planned today, what I'm going to do is just put the first part of the raw conversation with Marie below - sans comment - and let you read through it and think about how you would have responded to her and how you think I might have maybe done better with my responses here or there and if you can get a feel for my overall strategy for dealing with her.  I'll come back next week and fill in the gaps with my commentary. 

     Facebook can be a particularly frustrating platform to debate/dialogue with Protestants on (and Marie does not disappoint in that regard) because of the way its structured and other people being able to throw their comments in and how easily lines of argumentation can get derailed and so on, but, most people I know have tried, so I thought I would put my conversation on here and see if we can't figure out some strategies that seem to work and some that seem not to work, in the hope there is something that you could possibly benefit from and use in your future Facebook conversations with Protestants.  Note: my dialogue with her starts off with a comment of Marie's to L.L. Michael, and I jump in at that point.  Let me know what you think...

     So, Ladies and Gentlemen, may I introduce to you, Marie Taylor:

Challenge/Response/Strategy

Marie Taylor to L.L. Michael:

     Can you show that the apostles taught Mary was conceived without sin and that you must believe this to avoid condemnation? And can you explain why at least 7 of your popes denied that Mary was conceived without sin?


John S. Martignoni to Marie Taylor
     Can you show that the Apostles taught that all authentically Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture?


Marie Taylor
     To answer your question, you'll need to define "authentically". What makes something "authentic"? Is there unauthentic Christian teaching?  Please explain. 

     I will also add that Sola Scriptura does not deny tradition. It accepts all traditionally held beliefs that are either 1) traced to the apostles (and you don't have any of these that are not in Scripture) or 2) does not contradict Scripture (this is where the errors of your religion are noted).
But I'm glad you joined the discussion. Do you know the message of salvation? If so, what is it?

     Also, I'd like to personally invite you to join the group Catholics or Christians. Ken is a member there and he and the other Catholics could use some apologetic help. Don't you have a list of questions you believe we Protestants cannot answer? I'd love for you to do a series in the group to see if it is true that the questions cannot be answered. Are you up for the challenge?


John S. Martignoni
To your questions:

     1) Definition of "Authentic" - Being so in fact; not fraudulent or counterfeit.

     2) "Is there unauthentic Christian teaching?" Yes, there is, in the sense that there are people who call themselves Christians who pass off "unauthentic" (i.e., false) teachings as being true Christian teachings. For example, there are those who profess to be Christian who believe the doctrine of once saved always saved is an authentic Christian teaching. There are others who profess to be Christian who do not believe once saved always saved is an authentic Christian teaching. So, one of those groups of professed Christians is teaching an authentic Christian doctrine, and one of them is not. There are many such examples of teachings in Protestant theology that are not authentic Christian teachings and over which Protestants contradict themselves, as the above example of once saved always saved demonstrates.
     3) Of course Sola Scriptura does not deny tradition, since it is itself a man-made tradition.

     Now that I have defined the word "authentic" for you, I would ask that you please answer my question: "Can you show that the Apostles taught that all authentically Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture?"

     And, I do indeed have a list of questions that Protestants cannot answer. At least, they cannot answer them in a scripturally and/or logically consistent manner vis-a-vis their theology.

 

Marie Taylor
     1) What makes something "being so in fact"? Please be specific.

     2) If a teaching is unauthentic, it really isn't Christian, is it?
     3) Can you define Sola Scriptura for us? If you can, you'll see that Jesus taught it. If you can't then it is your definition that is man-made, isn't it?
     And to your question, I would deny that a teaching that is not authentic is Christian. Can you re-phrase your question? Do you mean to ask, "Can you show that the Apostles taught that all apostolic Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture?"
     And would you be willing to join Catholics or Christians and start a series asking one of your questions at a time?

     Also, I asked you a question above that you did not answer. Here it is again: Do you know the message of salvation? If so, what is it?


John S. Martignoni
     Don't play word games. You're not going to be one of those Protestants who parses words down to the individual letters so as to avoid answering direct questions with direct answers, are you?

     1) "What makes something, 'being so in fact'?" Really?! Is English not your first language? "Being so in fact," means something is true. That's not that difficult to understand.
     2) "If a teaching is unauthentic, it really isn't Christian, is it?" I knew you would play that game, which is why I gave an example of what I was referring to and how there are many Protestants who call themselves Christian who teach many unauthentic teachings that are referred to as "Christian" teachings because they pass them off as "Christian" teachings - Sola Scriptura, for example. If something is an unauthentic Christian teaching, then, yes, it is not a true Christian teaching. However, do you believe that everything every Christian believes about the Christian faith is true? If not, then can it not be said that there are Christians teaching things as Christian doctrine that are not authentic (i.e., true) Christian doctrine. Yes or no?

     3) You want me to define your doctrine for you? Which version of Sola Scriptura do you want? It pretty much depends on which Protestant you talk to as to what their definition of Sola Scriptura is. By the way, if two Protestants have different definitions as to what Sola Scriptura means, then by what authority do you decide who is right and who is wrong? Oh, and please do give me book, chapter, and verse where Jesus taught Sola Scriptura. If you can't, then I guess it is indeed a man-made tradition, isn't it?

     4) I failed to answer one of your questions from an earlier post, my apologies: "Do you know the message of salvation?" I suppose you are referring to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, yes? That's the "test" you guys give to make sure someone is authentically Christian, right? So, let me ask a "message of salvation" question of my own: What must you do to have eternal life?

     To simplify, here is the growing list of questions for you. I have replied to you point-by-point, answered every question you have asked. You, have played word games. So, to answer your final question, will I be willing to join Catholics and Christians, depends on how (and if) you answer these questions that I have already asked. Here they are:

     1) Can you show that the Apostles taught that all authentically (i.e. true) Christian beliefs are found directly in Scripture?
     2) Do you believe that everything every Christian believes about the Christian faith is true? Yes or no? If not, then can it not be said that there are Christians teaching things as Christian doctrine that are not authentic (i.e., true) Christian doctrine. Yes or no?
     3) If two Protestants have different definitions as to what Sola Scriptura means, then by what authority do you decide who is right and who is wrong?
     4) Can you give me book, chapter, and verse where Jesus taught Sola Scriptura? If you can't, then I guess it is indeed a man-made tradition, isn't it?
     5) What must you do to have eternal life?

 

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Again, folks, I'll be back next week with commentary on all this, but you should already recognize that, under ordinary circumstances, this is probably someone you don't want to spend a whole lot of time with, right?  I mean, "What makes something 'authentic'?"  "What makes something 'being so in fact'?"  Really?! 

Closing Comments

I hope all of you have a great week!  And don't forget to sign up for the women's conference in Birmingham on February 11th if you're anywhere close by!

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Apologetics for the Masses